Cleveland Trust

Here dude: . “According to ATADS, Hopkins had 331,899 operations in 2000 and 122,392 in 2017. The Cuyahoga County Airport dropped from 65,177 to 20,106 in that same period. To put it another way, the three airports in Cuyahoga County had 497,397 takeoffs and landings in 2000 and 181,069 in 2017.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevescene.com/cleveland/lies-damn-lies-and-the-450-acres-of-prime-lakefront-real-estate-that-is-burke-lakefront-airport/Content%3foid=16931820&media=AMP%2bHTML

1) Cleveland is failing compared to other cities. We are losing population while other cities are growing. We can agree this is a problem. 2) almost 500,000 flights in 2000, 187,000 flights in 2017, 3 airports, city loses $2 million at Burke with revenues dropping. We can agree that this is a problem, at least for the city. What is the benefit from losing this public money and for who? 3) incentivize moves to cut future costs. 4) users would move with services 5) the FAA does close airports if they are not needed. There is a lengthy process and we will need Congressmen on down on the same page. It may be a waste of time to even try. Again, the problem is that the flight path of Burke limits any development north of Route 2. Not that we would instantly develop the land Burke sits on but the land north of downtown would have less restrictions on it and become more attractive to developers. Who wants to live in a condo next to a runway when planes are most at risk of crashing? Even if Burke was left as a nature preserve—btw it is half the size of Central Park in NYC—we would still make the lakefront more useable by just closing it. Hopkins seems capable of handling at least double the traffic that it is now so why not cut costs as we shrink and try to engineer a comeback. Part of that comeback means making Cleveland a place people want to live. We have been doing something wrong, the status quo will be our demise.

One last thing. The $35 million is based on projected losses from 2016. There are hidden costs attached the bring it to double that. I can’t find confirmation however.

Looking for it. You got any? Sorry for commenting on posts in this forum.

Okay

Not relevant. Sorry. I am aware planes crash.

Do you have numbers to compare? What are the costs?

Like what? Examples?

What if those jobs could be shifted—not lost—in the city’s best interests so that everyone is happy? Are we expecting a miracle financial turnaround from Burke or should we make moves to cut loses? I see projected losses into the next decade close to $35 million or more, 60% drop in Burke use over that last decade. When do we begin to change that?

This is all addressed in the above report. What if Burke is a net loss for the city? Hopkins doesn’t need reliever, it is way under capacity.

It’s all in that report I posted above. A lot can be done. FAA does close underused airports, etc.

Just commenting on some of the posts on this thread, not tied to an actual development. Sorry.

You’re right! We need 3 airports in the county for a shrinking population operating at 1/3 capacity of 20 years ago, choking the lakefront, costing Clevelanders $2 million per year because meme. Maybe if Amazon comes here we can do something.

I do. The high rises would most likely sit north of downtown but can’t happen because of the Burke flight path. Burke itself is best used as a park/row houses built around extended Blue Line. The flight path is the real oppressor, not so much land use. It’s all in that study.

The 2002 study covers some of this: https://www.gcbl.org/files/resources/burkereport.pdf There will be costs and risks to change things. Maybe losing $2 million a year is the best we can do. Maybe bigger piles of limestone on the most valuable land in Cleveland is the way forward. Maybe high rise lakefront condos, a public park, and an urban golf course are overrated.

A few bulletpoints on feasability of closing Burke 1) Hopkins and Burke had 500,000 flights in 2000, 187,000 in 2017. Underused. 2) Underused airports have closed: Cincinnati, Chicago 3) the Fed no longer processes checks through Burke, no daily flights 4) Burke businesses would have to relocate to Hopkins or County airport 5) the property can be developed, two studies on soil done, one in 2002 and one more recently 6) financials from 2016 are online showing the $2-$3 million loss but I don’t know if that accounts for all money being spent at Burke. There is Federal money spent too. 7) they used to close Burke for a week for the Grand Prix. Maybe you’re right. Maybe Burke’s yearly loss is good for Cleveland and that loss is offset by huge benefits that I don’t see. Maybe that direct flight to Cincinnati will become an economic engine. Maybe Burke will one day be the envy of the world. I don’t know.

Trying to figure out what the benefit is and the cost. I’d hate to have a $7 million dollar drain on city coffers hold the lakefront hostage.

I’ve heard the city could save $7 million per year just by shuttering Burke and shifting to Hopkins. Not sure if this is true. Does anybody know if that sounds about right? Would have been nice if $70 million could have been saved in the last decade by merging two underused airports.

Does anyone know if it’s true that the city-owned 447 acre Burke Lakefront Airport is losing $2.1 million per year? Would it be cheaper to shift flights to the mothballed Concourse D at Hopkins?

Just meant that I don’t support some of the other lakefront plans that moved the port to Dyke 14. That huge public cost could be avoided.

You’re probably right.

I think developers can work around the Port and the soon to be replaced stadium. Burke’s present flightpath, however, truncates all future developments.

By closing Burke you remove the height cap on any potential project north of downtown. As a bonus you get acres of land that Burke sits on for future development. Scarcity of lakefront property makes it valuable in the way that other undeveloped land isn’t: https://www.cityscapeglobal.com/en/news/2019/Why-investors.html

The most valuable land in Cleveland: 1) a stadium used 10 days per year 2) piles of limestone 3) an airport used mostly for flight lessons 4) commercial train tracks for trains that could easily be rerouted I agree that the lakefront is isolated but I think we need to undo the mistakes of the past at some point. To me the lakefront is like the Cavaliers having LeBron James and making him sit on the bench. Our greatest asset that we could build upon is being held hostage by limited use infrastructure.

In re: Ferry proposal New Cleveland Neighborhood, North Burke or NoBu 1) get new Mayor 2) close Burke Airport 3) use Fred Toguchi designed MCM terminal for Ferry terminal 4) start small, 2 round trips a day on weekends 5) develop planned community around Burke old runway with link to Blue Line transit 6) Gold Rush!