Vulpster03

I don't doubt that smoking can be irritating. Even as a smoker, I've been in situations where the smoke starts to irritate me. However, a light to moderate dose of second hand smoke isn't enought to merrit the hand waving in front of the face and dirty looks. I believe that most people find the odor of second hand smoke offensive, because of social constructs more than anything. Maybe I just give more credence to the existance of social constructs, because I've been educated in sociology. But I think most people on this forum will aggree that social constructs are real and we need to be more aware of them before judgement is passed. If you look at the anti-tobacco or clean air interest their focus is almost entirely on cigarettes. This could explain why hookahs, cigars, aerosol sprays, camp fires, grills, and car exhaust don't get the same reaction from people as cigarettes do. Just as it is possible for someone to be socialized to believe that cigarettes are offensive, it is also possible for someone to be socialized to believe that cigarettes are not offensive. If you have traveled to certain other parts of the world, you can also look at the reversed situation in societies where smoking is much more common place and there isn't a very strong anti-tobacco campaign. In those societies people there, including nonsmokers, exhibit very few signs that smoking irritates them. I guess my point is this, odor alone is not really a fair factor to include in the anti-smoking campaign. Another unfair, but unspoken, factor is also the mere sight or thought of someone lighting up. For instance I wonder what made those people who never go to bars anyway to vote no on Issue 4. To focus on the odor or sight of smoking could be interpretted as a sign of intolerance.

^ I agree. Design is an issue (for both sides), but there are plenty of other factors in favor of saving it.

I don't know the specifics of other statewide bans, but based on my travel experiences I'd say it seems Ohio's is one of the most strict, and I have to ask why. Banning smoking within twenty feet of entrances, all places of employment, non-freestanding tobacco shops where less than 80% of revenue comes from tobacco, no patio with more than three sides, etc. ?Other states have passed successful smoking bans but allowed some places to remain that alow smoking. For instance I've noticed Boston and New York all have cigar bars and Hookah bars that will permit smoking, and California has coffee shops and very liberal definitions of patios where people can smoke. For the people who voted for the Ohio ban; 1. Is it necessary to completely erradicate smoking in public? 2. How was your experience between the law was enacted and the time it was enforced? Did it bother you there were a few places that still allowed smoking, even though nearly 90% (or whatever percent) of places were enforcing the ban?

I see more contemporary design in new Cleveland projects than Columbus projects. Usually the nostalgic neo-traditional post-modern architecture looks kind of bizarre, but I kind of like way neo-tradtional design is being used in Columbus. The scale of the project and location is similiar to downtown Cleveland developments, but in Cleveland the developments tend to be higher density near downtown. There are similiar types of townhome developments but on a smaller scale, more expensive, and a little farther away from downtown like the Townhomes of Ohio City. I think a development like this would be great fit for somwhere like Prospect Avenue just east of downtown.

The Plain Dealer Man killed on Bridge Avenue Posted by Brie Zeltner June 18, 2007 16:58PM Categories: Breaking News, Crime A man was shot dead about 4 p.m. today in an apartment house at West 44th Street and Bridge Avenue in Cleveland. Witnesses said the gunman left the area as a passenger in a taxi cab. Police called the taxi back to the crime scene to examine it for evidence. The suspect had not been captured. Police have not identified the victim but neighbors said his name was Chris and he was about 20 years old. www.cleveland.com

I'm a little disappointed too. I feel the property should have been used something for more upscale. We already have a couple extended stay hotels downtown. I see the property suitable for a Westin more than anything. By the way, what is going on to the site just north of the future Staybridge and next to the federal building? Its a good size footprint and it looks like they are prepping the site for construction.

^ hahaha, i happened to be already be smoking a Camel cigarette (not my usual brand) while watching that.

No, I think people really do depart their three-car garages, drive down suburban mainstreets with landscaped mound buffers, pull up to their job in a new corporate office park, stop at Avon Commons after to work to run errands, and head out to a chain restaurant with their family and think to themselves "... ahh, this is the life." Abundant parking, low density and the "newness" of suburbs is very desirable for a lot of people and think they are living the high life. Exactly. You'd be surprised how many people I know from the suburbs naively label something as "ghetto". Though Crocker Park didn't do anything for me to become more urban-inclined, I really see how many people living out there exposed to Crocker Park could see now how walkability and mixed-use could be more desirable than constant travel between places by car. Though I see some shortcomings, I think Crocker Park's attempt at new urbanism is good for no other fact than it did more than the immediate market area consumer would have expected. Stark had to fight to get Crocker Park approved, because Westlake didn't want anything resembling density and mixed-use. Stark took some chances, like building parking garages for instance. I'm more supportive of Crocker Park, because I saw the 20-year development parttern on the outer west side first hand, and can appreciate how much Crocker Park broke that pattern. I'm also familar with Crocker and Detroit Road in Westlake before Crocker Park. The whole area is more pedestrian friendly after Crocker Park was built, because the city of Westlake has put wide sidewalks up and down Crocker, and installed crossing signals at intersections. And even though Crocker Park is not directly set up on Crocker Road, its pretty darn close. Its nothing like Legacy or Easton where you pull in at the entrance and have a long drive until you arrive. With Crocker Park, you basicly go around a corner from Crocker Road and you're there. I've also been walking to Crocker Park from a job on Detroit Road in Westlake during my lunch break (until I get full-time salary employment in the city). It isn't that bad of a experience. I can walk, grab something to eat and head back in a half hour. And last summer when I worked downtown, I used Crocker Park as a park-n-ride pretty easily with no problems. While I don't know how many people are walking into Crocker Park, I know there are is a significant amount of people (especially kids) who ride their bikes there. You can't do stuff like that in North Olmsted, Beachwood, or Strongsville.

that was done very well

W.28th - To some degree I agree with several of your points, but I'm saying that it is apparent to me that many people viewed density and mixed-use as something inherently distasteful. They liked the sprawling shopping malls like Great Northern, and big box developments with restaurant out parcels like Avon Commons. That's what they associated with higher quality of life; sprawl, chains, and surface parking lots. Crocker Park has completely reversed that notion. For instance, for a long time people had idealized the single family homes with yards and attached garages, and large shopping centers with free parking. Developments like Crocker Park are motivating more people now to idealize mixed use development and walkability. I believe we need to curb urban sprawl and revitalize the metropolitan core, but all of Northeast Ohio should be more responsible for sustainable development, even places like Westlake.

I know i've said it before on another thread, but I think people on urbanohio are too critical of Crocker Park. I understand why people have issues with it not being an "infill" development, but it could be a lot worse. Let's face it; an upper mid level shopping center on the west side was inevitable. We could have ended up with a lot of the same stores in a sprawling shopping mall in Lorain County instead as proposed by Jacob's. It's realy a lesser of two evils. And as far as I can tell, it is the best large scale example of new urbanism by a single developer in Cleveland since Shaker Square. Crocker Park isn't really isn't a "lifestyle" center like Legacy Village or even Easton where its just all about retail and the streetscape. It is a "mixed-use" development with a diverse retail mix including independants and regional chains, basic neighborhood services, residential units, public transit, public space, offices, and parking garages. And it was planned more seamless into the community than people on this forum would like to realize. You have multi-tenant buildings being built just east of Crocker Park on Crocker Road, and medium density housing just south of Crocker Parck all the way to Hilliard. As someone who has grown up in the western suburbs, but is more urban-inclined, I see Crocker Park as an important warm-up for the suburban population. Most people in Westlake were actually afraid of Crocker Park when they heard about it, because they were afraid of density. I remember sitting outside the cafe at Borders when Crocker Park was being built and I overheard a woman say "Why are they building it so close [to the Promenade]?!" In fact I know some people who were so outraged that Crocker Park was approved for construction that they moved to Avon Lake. I'm not sure if they regret the move today, but the point is those people ended up liking Crocker Park and shopping there. Crocker Park has done a good job at proving to a suburban-inclined population that density and mixed-use development aren't bad things. In fact, I think it will create a greater demand for even higher density and mixed-development in Cleveland, which is a good thing.

Stark is covering a side of a parking garage and two sides of the Dick's at Crocker Park with townhomes. You can check it out here: http://www.thecoralcompany.com/PDF/Residential/westhampton/site%20plan%20w%20addresses.pdf

I made a web exhibit of Oxford's Rail Depot for one of my classes in public history last semester. It was a history class and we learned Dreamweaver in a couple workshops to make our sites. Its up on the web for you to look (unfortunately through these terrible frames). http://www.units.muohio.edu/mcguffeymuseum/ and then click on "Learn More" then click on "Our Collection" then click on "Student Exhibits".

Unfortunately i didnt get inside or get any digital images. However, you can see some of the progress through the windows. I was only told about it. The center measures over 300,000 square feet and will only occupy the space at the corner of Ontario and Euclid, so there is still plenty of ground floor available in the Higbee building. The space will include brochure racks, a help desk, computer stations, and a small theater to show videos. The CVB wants the center to be high-tech and interactive. Expect the center to open at the end of June. It will be open Monday-Saturday and close at 6 PM, although hours will be adjusted as needed to accomodate major festivals, games, conventions, etc.

^ That makes sense to me. I think a lot of national chains and retailers evaluate traffic based on automobiles. They don't seem to have have the resources (or common sense) to evaluate traffic coming from pedestrians. I'm sure corporate offices noticed that more cars travel on Cedar than they do Coventry, hence their move; nevermind the pedestrian traffic. It's like in Oxford when Wendy's had to move from the heart of uptown a couple miles north of town just so it could have a drive-thru. The people who make these decisions are pretty stupid.

tbone14 - good luck with you're search. I was just in Tremont at Prosperity Social Club and 806 - and then Mercury Lounge on W.6th - last night enjoying their great patios in the warm weather! 806 in particular had a pretty deccent and attractive crowd of females for a Wednesday night. Anyway, I an hoping to move into either Tremont or Ohio City myself in the next several months. (I only need to get a job first). I noticed the Plain Dealer Classifieds had some pretty extensive listings for reasonably priced Ohio City and Tremont apartments. A lot of the listings were vague on specific location, but the rates listed were really reasonable and worth a follow-up call in my opinion. I suggest you pick up the Plain Dealer and look for yourself.

It is inconvenient to go outside and smoke when: 1. The weather is bad 2. You can't take you're drink outside with you (because there is only a public sidewalk and no patio). 3. You are at a bar to watch a game or some other event. 4. You'd rather not stand outside alone on a dark street late at night. 5. You pay cover to go in a place and then when you go outside you have to get a verbal agreement from the bouncer to let you reenter. 6. You've been a good patron of local businesses as a smoker, and now you are suddenly made to go outside. The people who don't want to go outside and smoke aren't lazy. I don't have a problem not smoking in classrooms, shopping malls, hospitals, etc. It's just that bars are different and should be places where people relax and enjoy themselves. Most people drink because they enjoy it - not because they are addicted or mean to cause car accidents. Most people smoke because they enjoy it - not because they are addicted or mean to hurt those around them. But bars aren't "healthy" places anyway. No one has to go to a bar and no one goes there to be "healthy". I guess it isn't a right to smoke in a bar, but is it a right to go to a bar anyway? Looking back at the time after December 7 when many businesses started complying with the law, it seemed like everyone was satisfied. By and large most places did not allow smoking to satisfy nonsmokers, and then there were a few vestiges hanging around to satisfy smokers. I really wish we could have had a situation like this permanently. Issue 5 was way too strict. Did it offend nonsmokers when a few places continued to allow smoking even though they clearly had a choice not to go there? As for people breaking the law being classless. I'm sorry but the law is classless. It is rude and make people go outside and smoke. I find it very tacky to tell an adult what to do and what not to do in places and times of leisure. I get belittled for smoking all the time by aquaintences and strangers. Frankly, I can't believe that people have the gall to do this. People have no inhibitions in being critical toward strangers who smoke. It's honestly very sad and clearly something people do to make them feel better about themselves. I don't mean to be pretensious, but I've traveled extensively and often first class. I've stayed at certain hotels, dined at restaurants, drank at bars, and been in people's homes that could be considered authorities on class and service. In my experience these places (whether there wasn't or was a smoking ban) have most accepting and accomodating of smokers. The people around you at these places don't ever flinch, stare, or wave their hands in front of their faces either.

due to lease issues. they will probably just move again. years ago they where a few blocks up ludlow Thats right...I've heard that before. For some reason I was thinking Kaldi's in my head even though he clearly said Sitwells. I posted the City Beat article from May 20 here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9981.570

"Sitwell's Coffeehouse faces an unclear future" City Beat May 20, 2007 By C.A. MacConnell Even in the pre-rush, quiet morning hours, Lisa Storie, Sitwell's Coffeehouse owner, works feverishly, darting behind the shop counter, making drinks, sliding cookies into the oven. She worries about getting the homemade soup made. Outside, she puts out iron-black tables and chairs for smokers, even though it's raining. She makes quite a racket. Storie jokes with customers about Quentin Tarantino's mental state and new film, Grindhouse, but aside from normal business and lighthearted chatter, there's concern lurking behind her blue eyes. A Clifton dweller and store owner since the '90s, Storie faces difficult decisions ahead involving the renewal of Sitwell's lease. No link available for article.

Can someone tell me what this medical mart is really all about, because I don't really understand the concept.

um, i read in City Beat that sitwells is closing

The past month I've been trying to wrap up my college career and ensure graduation. So I finally graduated, and I'm home now working on starting my career in Cleveand!

I think this is an exaggeration, but he makes a lot of sense. I think this whole thing about the ban is about people wanting to feel better about themselves. There is absolutely no reason why smoking has to be completely erradicated from society. Why do nonsmokers care if certain places remain for smokers to gather?

^I will have details by monday, and MAYBE pictures

Specialty shops spread out to the suburbs Wednesday, May 16, 2007 Debbi Snook Plain Dealer Reporter The spirit of the West Side Market continues to take root in the suburbs - and yummy roots they are. Shops featuring rich baked goods, rare produce and ethnic specialties - not always found outside the city - are popping up in all directions. Here's a look at three newer stores: More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com