Vulpster03

^Who knows what the red buildings actually are (-new or new/renovated), but if this image is correct don't understand what Stark would want to change about the strip of buildings existing between St.Clair and Frankfort on W.6th.

There has been some considerable news on the project I came across that is posted on Stark Enterprises website. The fact they are posting the press on the project on their website seems like a good sign to me, because in the past when in came to press about the downtown development they posted very limited press on their website. http://www.starkenterprises.com/news.php Stark sets his sights on reviving downtown Cleveland Jewish News, June 1, 2006 BY: DAVID SEARLS "It's about that buzz you get in urban places like Chicago and New York." Bob Stark, CEO Stark Enterprises Robert Stark's goal is simple: "Rebuild a city." Article Removed Ambitious Downtown Development Project Proposed WCPN Aired May 22, 2006 http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/04_06/0522warehouse.html Local developer Bob Stark is courting national retailers this week at the International Council of Shopping Centers Convention in Las Vegas. His goal is to lure interested partners in a proposed $1-billion downtown Cleveland development. It's a proposal some say is the most ambitious downtown project ever. ideastream's Mhari Saito has details. http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/04_06/images/warehouse/warehouseMap.gif Warehouse District development map (new projects in red) Image courtesy of Stark Enterprises

lol. That is such a ridiculous drink. My friends and I would have "Sparx Parties" at a liquor store in uptown Oxford called the U Shop. They let purchase drinks and consume it there if you want. It is really just a small store, but in the past year it has these really bohemian employees that let you do whatever you want in there like smoke cigars, play cards, bring pets inside. As a result this shop has become a popular pregame or afterparty hang out, and it is much cheaper than buying drinks at a real bar. We had started with Sparx, but moved on to a cheap bottle of champagne That's me in the middle by the way. Anyway it is cool place and a fun thing to do. Not sure why I felt the need to share, but maybe they should open a place like this on E.4th

Indeed, and not only is it in Avon Lake, it is going in a typical suburban strip mall next to a Tops. It is also planning on going for a casual and reasonably-priced fare concept. I have no idea why it was mentioned in conjunction with Lola.

I agree that Stark is creating a market. Starks approach- which is the right one- is to do something on a scale that would be extremely transformative to cure the region's perceptions of downtown that could turn it into a vibrant place. I think what Stark is talking about could draw on a lot of people from the suburbs, nearby cities, and possibly be supported by a lot of tourists or extreme out of towners. It amazes me how many of my peers from the suburbs and college express that they want to live in big cities like Chicago or New York simply for the quality of urban living with great restaurants, nightlife, shopping within walking distance of where they live. What is more amazing is how they travel to these cities, spend money, become enthralled, and perhaps move there, but they never go downtown Cleveland. Where does New York and Chicago get all of its new residents, shoppers, visitors, etc? From all over the world, but I think if you were to look at how much money and people from Ohio are funneled into these cities, I think it would be a compelling number. That is your market research right there. Make Cleveland a smaller version of New York and Chicago and it will thrive. There is demand for those cities by the majority of Ohioans, so why not build this Pescht in Ohio? So many people from Ohio want a product like that closer to home. Stark's approach at touting it is the best mixed-use site in the country is not really that smart. His approach is common sense.

I gag everytime I hear things like this. I think local businesses and retail mixes work best when they completely embrace the city/neighborhood they are in, or try to create something unique.

Well I completely agree that this isn't the "biggest" downtown development in the city's history, and I consider this statement to be quite hyperbolic. However, I think compared to developments within the last few decades it is probably the "biggest" or at least the most transformative project to date. And obviously the Terminal Tower, Group Plan, and Gateway were immensely significant , however in terms of retail and residential this may be the "biggest" project yet in the city's history. I personally believe that this development will have transformative impact on downtown second to that of Terminal Tower when it was completed in 1930. I also see a bit of comparison between the Van Sweringens and Robert Stark. Like the Van Sweringens, Robert Stark seems to understand the connection between downtown and the suburbs, mixed use developments, good planning, ambitious goals, and public transit. Both parties seem to rely on intituition. The Van Sweringens are famous for saying "do it right, and don't worry about the money." I think Bob Stark is the one retail developer in Cleveland- unlike Forest City, DDR, First Interstate, or Jacobs- that comes close to this philisophy.

By the way Jimmy John's openned yesterday about mid-day. At first I was taking the Trolley around all over the place for the first time, but then when the weather was nice I began walking. I was all over the place looking for a summer job. A good number of people were inside by 4 PM or so. Lola's doesn't look to me like it will open for another month or so. Didn't look like there was much activity at all at Corner Alley. Oh, I remember seeing some kind of sign in the window above corner alley. I forget what it said, but it gave me the impression a new bar or restaurant would be going in above Corner Alley. Phantasy just down Prospect doesn't look like it is anywhere near being complete by July 1.

I always thought somehow this project was destined to flop at some stage in the game. The whole idea just sounded crazy to me.

^I have no doubt. We had a young austrian girl staying at my house and she was buying up jeans at Costco like crazy, and didn't think too much of Indigo Nation. There were a group international executives in town who wanted to do some American shopping. They went to Beachwood, Crocker Park, and Avon Commons. They spent the most money at Avon Commons.

I went to the game last saturday at the Q, and subsquently to bars to watch the game. I don't remember people having this much fun either. It has been a pretty incredible showing of spirit.

As much as I wish Steelyard Commons was mixed-use for the current site, or located somewhere else like Midtown which could have filled vaccant land made use of the Euclid Corridor project, it is still a decent project. It isn't as exciting as some other projects for the city, but in the bigger picture of whats going on with other projects Steelyard Commons doesn't depress me. In fact for a big box shopping center, Steelyards is maybe the best example a good big box shopping center. 1. The fact that it will make use of this brownfield site is positive. 2. First Interstate has agreed to pay for extension of the Towpath Trail and would construct a platform and station for the CV Scenic Railroad's extension to downtown. 3. The development is somewhat environmentally friendly with innovative parking lots to reduce runoff. 4. First Interstate has asked for little to no financial assistance from the city. 5. The location is pretty central, and isn't too bad. Is it somewhat isolated from residential neighborhoods? A little, but by car it will take Clevelanders a very short time, and it will be very convenient. In addition, it shouldn't be much of a problem for RTA to run buses through the development. First Interstate and RTA are working together on the transit aspect. 6. I don't think neighborhood markets like Dave's will be affected. Dave's and other markets are in terrific locations. I've actually been to Superwalmarts, and I can tell you that they really aren't full service grocery stores. There is one in Oxford. On the occasions that I went to Superwalmart I would try and do grocery shopping there, but ended up having to stop at Kroger afterward anyway for simple things like a box of crackers. 7. As much as I don't care for sprawling big box suburban shopping centers, the reality is that they are here. People shop at them and like them. I'm not too sure how I'll like the aesthetics of Steelyard Commons, but even so, the scale and and layout of this development is unparalleled by any other type of development that exists in Northeast Ohio (or perhaps the country). I kind of like the fact that instead of Cleveland having a variety of big box shopping centers throughout the city, all big box shopping will probably be concentrated here in one place. 8. Because big box shopping will be highly concentrated, not only will it keep money spent in Cleveland, but it may also draw people from the suburbs and maybe even international tourists who are staying downtown. Not even the suburbs could really compete with a shopping center like this one. Check out their current lease plan on their website. I entertain European visitors maybe a few times a year. They are actually more excited about shopping at Avon Commons than Crocker Park. I think it might give Cleveland an edge on the international tourism market, because shopping centers like Steelyard Commons and its tenants are not found in any other major cities. Europeans know and hear about all these big box stores in America, but when they come visit big cities in America they are rarely given the opportunity to see them.

I think these units are going to sell like crazy. The location is great, and the views are probably incredible. It would have been nice though if they could have incorporated some more landscaping along the terraces. To me part of the attraction of the cliffs along the river is all the green.

This is off topic from E.4th, but Jimmy Johns is going in the old Big Fun space in Coventry too.

I think i'll actually try that sometime.

^True. Commuting downtown from the heights isn't bad, but considering the relatively short distance from downtown it shouldn't even take that long. It takes only five minutes to get downtown from W.117th, and heck- it only takes me 25 minutes to get to Public Square from my house all the way out in Avon Lake. Getting downtown from the west side is much easier, and i think if you are commuting downtown regularly the west side makes a little a more sense.

Sorry I haven't been on the forum much lately, and I want to respond but didn't thoroughly read through all the posts on this thread. I may be repeating a lot of what has already been said. As an undergrad college student myself from the Cleveland area who is returning soon for grad school, my first choice would be Ohio City. Even though downtown would be great to live, Ohio City is a nice urban "neighborhood" alternative to downtown. It has a lot of houses and some parks, but isn't as dense and highly trafficed as downtown. The bars and cafes in Ohio City along W.25th are a little cheaper, much more friendly, and pretty cool. And your neighborhood grocery store - the West Side Market - is one of the last city-owned markets in the US, very European/old-world, and one of the coolest things about Cleveland. The combination of the historic houses, W.25th commercial district, and West Side Market create an atmosphere that probably make it one of the most unique urban neighborhoods in the country. Ohio City also has a rapid station that will get you to downtown in a minute, and then places like the Airport and University Circle in decent time. Tremont is very cool as well, although maybe not as serviced by RTA? (others can verrify this). Tremont's strongest points in my opinion are Lincoln Park, art galleries, and very trendy dining, although it might be lacking neighborhood amenities that Ohio City has, and the hotspots aren't nearly as concentrated as they are Ohio City. In my opinion Tremont is really good for artists, but most people would probably prefer living in Ohio City. Lakewood has traditionally been the place for young professionals or CSU students to live. By car you can be downtown in five-ten minutes, you can find parking easily in Lakewood, it has a number of bars and restuarants, it is right on the lake, and you can find many nice for-rent units in safe areas that don't cost very much. Lakewood is fairly diverse with a large middle-class family population as well as young adults. For someone like your girlfriend who may be unsure about the city, Lakewood is a good option to test it out I think. It is a nice compromise, and from there you could decide to go closer into the city or farther from it. I wouldn't recommend the Heights area if you are going to CSU, only because traffic to and from downtown can be very bad. Otherwise it is perfect for young professionals to live with great inexpensive housing units, safe neighborhoods, walkable, beautiful, and excellent commercial districts like Coventry Village and Cedar-Fairmont. If you were going to school or working in University Circle I would strongly recommend the heights. Cleveland Heights is to University Circle like Lakewood is to downtown. Cleveland heights is very 'East Coast' in terms of the type of people and architecture. Californians especially gawk at Cleveland Heights, because nothing like that exists out there. Shaker Square in the Heights area, however, might be a good consideration because it is conveniently serviced by excellent neighborhood amenities, shops, cinema, restaurants, and a rapid station that will take you downtown in minutes. Shaker Square is a beautiful setting and really cool. There are lots of apartments within walking distance to the square. Your girlfriend's transition from S. Floridia may be difficult, but the way I see it Northern cities have a lot more culture and history. You sacrifice nice weather, but it is a reasonable trade-off. The neighborhoods I mentioned and places especially like University Circle you just won't find in the South or on the West Coast. Visiting is the probably the best way to find an apartment. A lot of apartments in buildings or duplexes (which are somewhat unique to Cleveland and a typical Cleveland for-rent housing arrangement) simply put "For Rent" signs outside, so driving around and writing down addresses and phone numbers is really the best way. Even though is for-sale housing, this realty group has somewhat of a monoply on urban housing. You might be interested in checking it out, because it gives profiles on neighborhoods like Ohio City and Tremont: www.progressiveurban.com. On the internet cleveland craiglist is a good way to find apartments, and clv lofts has a lot of affordable apartments in good areas.

Today it looked like Jimmy John's is open on Euclid or about to open day now. The last time I saw it was several months ago, and I don't know why, but it looks a lot different than I imagined it would look from the outside.

I just don't see the need to tear it down. It can be fixed up. The exterior needs to be cleaned, the windows changed so they aren't so dark, and maybe dramatic lighting added the exterior. That would do the trick in my opinion.

I thought we were trying to build Pesht for the lakefront; not the Soviet Union.

Too bad the building is haunted. The ghosts might stop the project from happening.

There are renderings on the Landmark Commission's page; Mostly technical type drawings of the balcony component. http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/photo/2-9-2006/020906.htm#

Cuz Dick Jacobs probably did a $licker job at lobbying than the other property owners. Exactly - although in my opinion it is a great location and using the Rotunda building will be great.

^ Then why did the county buy the building in the first place?

You know, I'm not from the Cinci metropolitan area, but go to Miami University. There is a widespread belief on campus that there is a little persons' or midget community located on or very near the Rumpkee landfill. Does anyone know if this claim is accurate?