neony

Yes, exactly. You said it better than me.

Same old, same old... This is where Amtrak's proposals to develop corridors with state help will run into difficulty.

In my best Gomer Pyle... Surprise, surprise, surprise!!! Let's fake 'em out and tell them the trains will carry shipments of guns! That'll get them to support the trains!

Hold my beer rookies! Ha ha

It assumes a full schedule WITH stops, just as the New York Central did years ago. Also, with multiple frequencies, some trains can run express while others make more stops. Places like Worthington, Delaware and Galion would likely have stops.

We won't know travel times until a study looks at the options. That said, if the train's running is competitive with drive times, a substantial number of people will take the train if for no other reason than to avoid the grind of driving up and down I-71. If the train just averages 60 mph---a very achievable speed---that gives us a downtown to downtown 2:15 trip time. Suburb to suburb would be 20-30 minutes faster. That's a very competitive trip time. A 70 mph average speed (90 mph top speed) would probably get us Cleveland-Columbus in two hours flat downtown to downtown. That's faster than driving, unless you exceed speed limits.

Ironically, 100 years ago just the opposite was true. Railroads reigned supreme and highways were usually quite poor. Since then we spent huge amounts of public money on roads, which was a major factor in the demise of privately owned railroads operating passenger trains. We need to invest in railroads on a par with other modes. It's literally a case of "build it and they will come."

Right. The Lakefront station can only handle one train at a time currently, but there is room for at least three tracks and platforms. Tower City has room for tracks, but getting in there is going to be more of an issue than at the Lakefront location. There is also room to service trains near the Lakefront station at the dormant E 26th St yard, which is right above the Inner Belt just south of Dead man's Curve. I don't know where trains would be serviced at Tower City. Maybe KJP has some ideas.

KJP quite correct to point out that a station (either at Tower City or at the Lakefront) is really just the tip of the iceberg when we are talking about 20 trains per day or more. Really, we need a full blown alternatives analysis to decide which location makes the most sense. Either location will incur substantial costs, but that's what happens when we lose infrastructure and then want to rebuild it.

I have not posted here in some time, but make no mistake about it, what is happening at NOACA and with the DeWine Administration could represent a tectonic shift. Add to that Amtrak's desire to create a Cleveland mini-hub and interest from places like Buffalo and Erie and things might change radically. After years in the doldrums, this appears to be the best chance for the region to move ahead on passenger rail. I am more optimistic than I've been in years but all of us need to do whatever we can to push this along, especially contacting your federal and state legislators. They need to hear from us.

Building coalitions and all that goes with that is good, but unless the target of that effort is at least willing to listen, it's a waste of time. KJP, Gildone, myself and others worked on Ohio for years and nearly got to the mountaintop a number of times, only to have the state turn its back on us. The last time it was Kasich, but we had reverses several times before that. When it comes to Ohio we just have to face the fact that it's a state filled with doubters and that it has a fusty conservative streak to boot, which inhibits progress. Better to put what energy we have left (I've been at this since 1974) into finding ways to BYPASS Ohio. Yes, let Ohio sit while we work on other solutions. If they want to participate later, fine, but don't wait for them to lead. One way to work around Ohio is the formation of the Lakeshore Rail Alliance, an umbrella organization representing eight rail advocacy organizations along the route of the Lake Shore Limited between New York and Chicago. This is important because for the first time, these organizations are speaking with one voice. It's already having an impact . We are finding that leaders outside of Ohio are sharing our vision and are taking real steps to create rail passenger service. They intuitively know things can and should be better. One of these is in Erie County PA, which has created its first-ever rail commission and funded it with $1 million in casino tax revenue. All because we talked and they listened. Lately, US Rep. Marcy Kaptur and NOACA have been talking about doing things with passenger rail too. One thing LRA is promoting is the formation of a multi-state authority to bypass do-nothing Ohio. Such an entity could partner with developers to create development near train stations and use tax revenue to finance further rail improvements. It's hard to say whether we will succeed, but the point is: When you encounter an obstacle, you go around it.

Some other items. I don't know if any of this has been posted elsewhere, so apologies in advance if there is any duplication. Several good things are happening: The Lakeshore Rail Alliance (LRA), an umbrella organization consisting of every rail advocacy organization between New York and Chicago, has been at work. One result of its efforts has been to urge Erie County PA to create a new rail commission, which it did. The County also dedicated $1 million in funding for it. This is a big breakthrough. A couple of things may come out of this, including a Buffalo-Erie-Cleveland capital needs study and possibly new daytime service to Cleveland. LRA is now looking to add organizations and build support for more passenger rail in the New York-Buffalo-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago corridor, including both corridor and through services. This is all fluid and things could change but is very encouraging.

You Tube vid concerning Amtrak's $7.3 billion deal with Siemens Mobility for wholesale replacement of Amtrak's current Amfleet equipment.

KJP: The other item NY is talking about is a maintenance base at Niagara Falls NY

Goddamn stupid and shortsighted.

Agree. I mentioned to Gildone that while Amtrak execs probably scoffed privately when Brightline was announced, they aren't scoffing now. They seem to realize that the old "just give us the money to run the trains" mantra isn't good enough anymore, which it never was anyway. For years Amtrak was too insular and set in its ways. Its execs thought they were bulletproof and were content to stand pat, when they should have been aggressively promoting the organization as an agent of change. Well now that change is coming and they belatedly realize that they have to change with it, which is good, but decades too late. Incidentally, there are scads of Brightline construction vids on You Tube. Check them out!

Oh yes, by the time you add engineering and labor costs, along with the costs of substations, towers and the wires themselves, catenary is very expensive. This is why privately owned, for profit freight railroads don't have it and why Amtrak only has it on the Northeast Corridor. In fact, it wasn't until the 1990's that the New Haven-Boston section of the NEC was electrified. Most routes outside the NEC do not have enough frequencies to justify the cost. That said, there should be far more electrification, but it will take a massive federal expenditure to make that happen.

Sure. In a perfect world, the terminal would not have been abandoned either, but it was and that created a vacuum which was filled by new development. IMHO we will never get the original railroad terminal back and yes, it would be expensive even if we could do that . We are just lucky that the old coach yard hasn't been filled with additional development. Its presence gives us one last chance to get back to Tower City. It's a crime that it was lost to begin with.

KJP has the subway ramping up to street level and proceeding to the theater district, where it would turn north to the lakefront. He probably has a diagram posted somewhere. This loop is sorely needed in order for RTA to broaden its reach in the downtown area.

Except that the original place where the tracks and platforms were is now a parking deck. You'll never get back in there. BTW, the tracks closest to the river are meant to be for the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad. Amtrak would use the tracks nearest Huron Road. The latter area is the old coach yard where equipment laid over between runs and was serviced.

Just a bit of a cautionary note... The picture seems to be changing quickly with regard to Amtrak's initiatives, which are still primarily corridor oriented. It remains to be seen whether they would actually be willing to add another thru train running the full length of the Lake Shore Route. Still, the comments I heard were far more favorable than in the past. I think the best we can hope for is extension of trains from New York, Pennsylvania and Michigan to Cleveland first and **maybe** one thru New York-Chicago train if we are lucky. Even that would be a huge advance. We also do not know what the freight railroads will say about this, but don't be surprised if they demand billions to discourage this stuff.

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes anyway: Lately, we have been seeing reports that Amtrak has been quietly studying a radical increase in the amount of service it will offer in the future. KJP posted about this and it portends a huge increase of service to Ohio. I attended a Zoom conference last Saturday and an Amtrak Rep had some interesting things to say: 1) Amtrak wants to ask for an increase in its funding from the current $2 billion/yr to $5 billion/yr over the next five years. It's unclear whether this will be a part of the upcoming Biden infrastructure bill or not. 2) Amtrak wants to upgrade 20 existing corridors and add 30 new ones. I believe Amtrak said it would provide 100% of capital costs and 5 years of operating costs, with states picking the latter up after that. This appears to be a recognition that most states do not have the wherewithal for a major rail program. 3) Amtrak wants the flexibility to be able to add these corridors unilaterally in case a state does not want to buy in. Thus, a recalcitrant state in the middle of a corridor would not gum things up. 4) Amtrak values its long distance service (unlike the attitude of the past) and want to improve it. It may in **some** cases ADD service, a major shift in direction. My fave would be a second or third thru New York-Buffalo-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago train in addition to any corridor service. After all this time, it's refreshing to see such a pro-active stance from Amtrak. It's a vast improvement! I might add that Amtrak is proposing to replace its entire long distance fleet. Amtrak is now looking for support. Coincidentally, an ad-hoc group sprang up late last year composed of rail advocacy organizations in New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. This group started as a means to generate support for more thru New York-Chicago service on Amtrak's Lake Shore route, but is now also in support of Amtrak's plans as well. I'll post more about them shortly.

In regard to the Cuyahoga lift bridge, even if Amtrak is relocated to the Tower City, NS freights will still use the bridge and that means the current situation regarding boaters will remain. NS likely has zero interest about raising the bridge to allow enough clearance for most boats to pass underneath when the span is in its lowered position, unless someone else is willing to foot the bill. The only other choice would be to relocate the NS main away from the waterfront, as KJP has discussed elsewhere. Either would be costly.

I have followed developments concerning Tower City and the Lakefront Amtrak station for years. Here are a few factors (some already mentioned) to consider: a) Ease of access for motorists - favors the Lakefront station. b) Airport stop - favors the Lakefront station c) E 25th St yard available for equipment layovers BUT... c) Tower City directly connects to the downtown hub for RTA - huge advantage - RTA connections not as good at the Lakefront station. d) Essentially zero rail freight or river traffic to deal with. e) Tower City has greater capacity to grow - poss 8 tracks vs. maybe 3-4 at the Lakefront. It's really a tossup. I like either one. Incidentally, I'm that friend from NY who KJP mentions and I'm here to tell anyone who will listen that Amtrak is ALWAYS well patronized despite "serving" Cleveland in the wee hours. I also lived in Ohio for many years and advocated for better train service during that time. I used to post here as well, under the name Buckeyeb, but drifted away when I moved out of Ohio. Some good things appear to be happening, so I'm back under the neony name (North East Ohio - New York).

Thank you sir.