w28th

Sounds like a personal attack to me. And as for the numbers, they were taken straight from census data. He just didn't interpret them for all of you. The census bureau links in question are in my previous post. The pittsburgh numbers were off by +14,000 and the Cleveland numbers were -12,000. What is there to be interperated?

Just to nitpick... Allegheny DID NOT rank in the Top 10 of total people moving out of the county. It also did not rank in the Top 10 for net migration loss. It did, however, rank in the Top 10 for raw "population loss"... which in Allegheny's case is primarily due to deaths outnumbering births... a legacy of the demographic devastation that occured in the wake of the steel collapse 20-25 years ago. In almost every other major county... births outnumber deaths... even in struggling population losers like Cuyahoga and Wayne, MI... which makes up for some of the out-migration. There is an important distinction between the two primary components of population change... natural and migration. Though I could suppose you could claim people who die are "moving out of the county to the county of Heaven, NC" lol For example... from 2000-2006... Allegheny, PA has had a net migration of approx. -46k... about half the total number and half the rate of Cuyahoga. Let's compare components of population change for fun... 2000-2006... these are just raw numbers cuz I don't feel like doing percentages right now: Allegheny, PA Natural: -9k Migration: -45k Cuyahoga, OH Natural: 16k Migration: -91k Franklin, OH Natural: 56k Migration: -26k Hamilton, OH Natural: 22k Migration: -67k Erie, NY Natural: 4k Migration: -29k Wayne, MI Natural: 59k Migration: -142k Mecklenburg, NC Natural: 50k Migration: 85k Cook, IL Natural: 236k Migration: -327k as a side note... Cook, IL (Chicago) experienced a mind-boggling DOMESTIC net migration of -601k... INTERNATIONAL net migration made up for less than half of that loss "Just for fun" and accuracy, I'd like to contest the numbers that Evergrey has come up with from a post above the most recent story here. As usual it is skewing the numbers in pittsburgh's direction, and short changing Cleveland's. The 2000-2006 population losses are as follows: Alleghenny County: -58,000 730 sq miles http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/42003.html Cuyahoga County: -79,000 458 sq miles http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39/39035.html Now obviously both are not good numbers, but the numbers are misleading because since alleghenny is much larger in square miles, it contains more of the sprawling area of the metro area. In the end it's probably a wash. Census data and evergrey posts can never be looked at for face value or accuracy. Next time you post statistics "for fun," make sure they're right.

I'm a big fan of the man?woman? smoking a stoggie.. Let's try for half million for 2020.

The abstract solid/void move Breuer pulled on the lobby facade is definetly one of the most interesting articulations in the city, along with the precast units. If they were washed, lit, and had people interacting with it, people may appreciate it more.

“We represent the philistine position, those people who are too stupid to realize the architectural significance of this building,” David Lambert, assistant Cuyahoga County prosecutor, said dryly at a recent meeting of the Cleveland Planning Commission. This is an unfortunate attitude that is common among the majority of the population of this country, design simply does not matter. And he's right, they probably are "too stupid."

From the New York Times... CLEVELAND, June 17 — Marcel Breuer, one of the fathers of modern architecture, built only one skyscraper, the 29-story Cleveland Trust Tower, which today stands abandoned on a forlorn block downtown. David Maxwell for The New York Times Marcel Breuer’s 1971 Cleveland Trust Tower was abandoned in the late 1980s. A development plan proposes an office building on the site. But a plan to demolish the tower, and replace it with a midrise government office building, has caused an outcry among architectural preservationists, who call the building an overlooked landmark. “It’s like saying it would be O.K. to lose some of the paintings that Picasso did that weren’t his best work,” said Louis R. Pounders, a Memphis architect and member of the design committee for the American Institute of Architects. “Anything that’s done by someone of Breuer’s stature has merit on its own.” Some people, though, just call Breuer’s building ugly. “That thing looks like a collector’s case for Matchbox cars,” said Julie Baker, a commercial banker, as she sat on a patio opposite the tower. “If I could get a wrecking ball, I’d tear it down myself.” Few people know that Breuer designed the Cleveland Trust Tower, which was built in 1971, a year after he offered his plan to build a large skyscraper directly atop Grand Central Terminal in Midtown Manhattan. That proposal galvanized the historic-preservation movement in New York, which, helped by the support of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and others, scored a major victory by defeating the project. Except for their vastly different scales, Breuer’s designs for the Cleveland and Grand Central towers were quite similar. Their facades, honeycombs of rough concrete that make no effort to conceal their girth, were undiluted expressions of modern design principles. With deeply inset windows, both buildings were examples of the dark, sculptured aesthetic of Breuer’s later work, which found its most popular expression in his design of the Whitney Museum. The fact that preservationists here are defending the Cleveland tower provides a paradoxical footnote to the most humiliating defeat for Breuer, who died in 1981. “It is quite amazing how things have come full circle,” said Anthony Hiti, a Cleveland architect fighting to save the tower. “This building represents his vision for Grand Central on a smaller scale, which gives it more historical significance.” The National Building Museum in Washington is planning a major exhibition on Breuer’s architecture and design, to open in November. The curator, Susan Piedmont-Palladino, wrote a letter recently to the Board of Commissioners in Cuyahoga County, which includes Cleveland, comparing the possible destruction of the tower to the razing in the 1950s of Victorian masterpieces and several major buildings by Frank Lloyd Wright. “These are irreparable tears in the fabric of our built patrimony,” Ms. Piedmont-Palladino wrote, “and surely everyone involved came to regret those decisions.” Designed as an imposing symbol of the strength of its namesake, the Cleveland Trust Tower instead became a monument to the company’s failure. The original plan called for a wing that would wrap around the bank’s glass-domed rotunda building at the corner of East Ninth Street and Euclid Avenue, the historic heart of Cleveland’s financial district. The company never grew to the point that it needed the space so the wing was never built. Cleveland Trust changed its name to Ameritrust, and in the late 1980s merged with what is now KeyBank. The old bank forfeited its name and its corporate headquarters, and the Breuer tower has been empty ever since. In September 2005, Cuyahoga County bought the tower and five adjacent buildings for $21.7 million. Two of the county’s three commissioners voted in March to demolish the skyscraper. County leaders and preservationists agree on the tower’s shortcomings. By modern standards, its layout and ceiling heights are cramped. Its mechanical systems, designed for a building twice its size, are outdated and overly large. Its porthole windows provide terrible insulation. Some government officials have grown tired of pointing all this out. “We represent the philistine position, those people who are too stupid to realize the architectural significance of this building,” David Lambert, assistant Cuyahoga County prosecutor, said dryly at a recent meeting of the Cleveland Planning Commission. The commissioners who voted to demolish the tower, Jimmy Dimora and Timothy F. Hagan, did not return calls seeking comment. Replacing the tower with an office building would cost $223 million, said Barbara Shergalis, the project’s director. The design is not complete, but officials envision a highly efficient 15-story building with a large footprint that would allow the public easy access to all departments. “I’m incredibly excited about this because it’s an opportunity to invigorate what was once the most vital core of downtown Cleveland,” Ms. Shergalis said. The planning commission will discuss the issue again on June 29. The county commissioner who voted against tearing down the Cleveland Trust Tower, Peter Lawson Jones, said that retrofitting it would cost $185 million to $200 million, a significant saving for taxpayers over the cost of a new structure. Mr. Jones also said that he had become a fan of the old tower’s design. “To my eye, the rotunda is more attractive,” he said, “but the two of them can make a very interesting contrast.”

The jazz lounge in the old Sissler Jewelry building is really coming along. The bar is intact and they seem to be working on the rear wall of the club. That building is one of more interesting ones in the city. No more than 20 feet wide, 6 or 7 stories tall, fire escapes, slightly blackened from soot, faded painted signage on the upper sides of the building, etc. E4th was packed during lunch today with all the restaurants now being able to have alfresco dining with the closure to thru traffic.

I don't even know how to respond to redbeards comments...

That's because 99.9% of everyone's work is uninspired garbage that is nothing more than replications of past work that they have done. Why is it when architects are critical of project design on this site, so many people get defensive about it? Having a dialogue on how to move this city forward in terms of design entails having opinions on what is proposed, and not accepting the status-quo bulls%#t from architects like Paul Volpe that has plagued us for the past 50 years. Personally, I'm not content with just having things built, and hopefully this project doesn't become Volpe typical "style." I want developments like this to come to fruition, don't get me wrong, but they can be done in a way that represents the progress of contemporary design. Combine this project done the right way, with the CSU Visual Arts Center, Euclid Corridor and the new Law Building (notice the Student Center is not mentioned) and this area of the city really has something going here.

City Architecture/Paul Volpe is the worst. Glad to see this project get some legs though.

And this thing is going to be 10 blocks long?

Great, now Volpe can piss all over Euclid Avenue. How does this guy keep getting work? Oh wait, I know, his unsettling connections with the city. Prepare for EIFS cornices and fake columns to mimic the "context" of Aldi's and that church.

A team from Vancouver won top prize. Second place was from Austin, TX, and third was from Oakland. Eastern Standard Time did not represent.

The problem is there really isn't much of a market in the intercity for those stores at this point. Look at the location of both centers mentioned. They are surrounded by wealth. I would love to see the stores in the intercity also, but I think we have sometime until that happens. Really?...

Unfortunately I worked for an architecture firm that specializes in "lifestyle" centers, and it's a bulls#%t marketing ploy that I simply don't want to be a part of. I don't like going to either, but until we get the stores in the city, I've decided not to patronize the skim-urbanism of Crocker Park and Legacy Village. That's all there is to it.

morningT, thanks for your input that I don't care about. I'm pretty sure I stated that I UNHAPPILY go to the sprawling, parking lot dependant Great Northern Mall. I go there because I want to be no part of a supposed "lifestyle" that is going on at CP. They may not be fooling anybody on this forum, but you can be damn sure the average soccer mom and clueless professional think it's a real city. That place will get no money of mine. Obviously density is a plus, but I don't think it should happen at the expense of the urban core.

Vulpster, what are you comparing Crocker Park to? If you are saying it isn't that bad in relation to Legacy, Eaton, or whatever hellhole shopping mall, you're comparing shit against worst shit? And as far as warming people up to urban living, I think that is a false analysis. If anything, it gives a false impression of what real urbanism is, and probably scares them from the real thing. The city is more than streetside chain restaurants and clothing stores. It's the small family run badega, buses chugging down the street, the babbling homeless guy on the corner, the abandoned building being turned into housing, buildings not built with styrofoam. Granted, Cleveland could be a bit more dense and contain les homeless, but it gives people something to get behind and make better. The same will never be said about the love child of urban sprawl and the consumer society. I know you are saying it was an inevitible development, but it trying to pass itself off as something "urban" is something I will not patronize, or buy into. I unhappily go to Great Northern when need be.

I really take offense to the last line in the article. "I will happily go back to the suburbs if this is the way we're going to be treated by the city and by the developer," Is somebody holding a gun to this guys head to live in the City? If you are spurned away from living in Cleveland, or anything for that matter, because of a tight parking space, you have some serious issues. And to end an article like that is just what KJP said, a cheap swipe at Cleveland. I just don't get the PD, for every positive article there are countless little jabs like this, that in the end, make city dwellers dispise the PD. Who are they targeting to read this paper?

If the parking zone is treated correctly within the facade of the structures it could be a dynamic part of composition. Overlapping different programs and revealing each, should be viewed as an opportunity.

Nice pickup. That bridge is lying to us

What a very discreet way of letting the world know that your dad was a baseball player, and you are a lawyer. I think it's safe to say that nobody here could give a single damn about any of that. If anyone sees an overweight, uninformed, late 20's lawyer roaming around E4th talking about his washed up ballplaying dad, give him another reason to move out of Cleveland with a swift kick in the ass. Good ridance. Anyways, back to rkvam. I think Tremont may be a good fit for you if you in your late 20's. The bar scene there is a little more sophisticated than the Warehouse Distrct, and the restaurants in the neighborhood are the best in the city in my opinion. And ignore any future posts from subclavius. Occasionally uninformed people find their way into the forum and generally move on after they are discredited.

The City definietly did look good on the aerial shots, a lot of reflections off the glass on the buildings. Having the lights of Jacob's Field on also really lit up the sky aswell. Just wish the Terminal Tower was fully lit.

That photo above is bad ass. The City was absolutely crazy last night. My girlfriend and I walked home from downtown to Ohio City at 3:00 and the traffic was still gridlocked on the Detroit-Superior bridge, with people beeping horns, blasting music, and hanging out the windows to high-five pedestrians passing them. And like the above article stated, it was a surprisingly tame crowd throughout the city. I question though why E4th was not closed down to vehicular traffic so people could watch the game and drink outside. Isn't this type of event why the street was even done in the manner it was? Strange.

Paris Nord, I spent a month there one night.