Jeff

The study happened in the 1960s, so it probably was that old one you explored?

I really liked the Brooklyn shots, particularly the ones with that tall phallic skyscraper with the clock on it (the one with it in the haze, and the brownstowns and the railings in the foreground was really nice). And most unexpected shot....the night shot what looks like an L line on axis with Grand Central Station with a train headlights......ive seen that vista, but its from Park Avenue, not from a railroad, so I gather this is pretty far up on the east side somewhere? Very interesting shot.

I think there used to be a state insane asylum there, too... ...it was the site of a famous pyschological experiment .."The Three Christs of Ypsilanti" that was written up in a book:

Well, that is quite an interesting observation! I don't listen to jazz on purpose but I have noticed there is a lot of it going on in Dayton. WYSO used to do their weeknight programming mostly in jazz, which was sort of interesting to me as, though not a fan, I used to listen to this a lot... Here is a local website, also a newsletter, put out by this old couple who lives in the Dayton Towers..... Jazz Advocate ...interesting also, to see, that they have a link to a Cincy page. As for his comment about "Dayton answered this by bringing the black and white community together"...well, Dayton is pretty segregated, but the center city...downtown and environs...is sort of a shared space, and isn't percieved as a no-go area for either whites or blacks. It certainly isn't a no-go area for people of any race who live live music of any kind, that's for sure.

Syphony Hall in Boston is supposed to have some of the best acoustics in the country, and Music Hall is right up there with it. Since we get CET via cable up here in Centerville we get some Cincy-specfic programming, and one of the better shows was this very interesting history of Music Hall. Apparently it started out as a venue or space for the various German singing societies, and then became a joint-venture with the Cincy elite as highbrow music space. And it was also intended in part to be a exhibition hall (the two wings). I guess the idea of a major classical music/concert venue away from downtown isn't too odd. Isn't Severance Hall in Cleveland over at University Circle, quite a ways from downtown?

This has made the front page of the Dayton Daily News as well.

...and away we go (again).

I have wondered why concert halls are located downtown. In Dayton's case I think, if the ballet, symphony, and orchestra where to be located close to their patron base a performing arts center would be built near the Fraze Pavillion in Kettering. Having been to peforming arts events at these venues, one can tell that its a quick walk for the patrons to the nearest parking garage, to get in the car and drive out of town. I dont think there is much spin-off to downtown things from these arts events (perhaps to Unos or Citilights) Yet, the Vicotria was renovated and the Shuster Center built, so there is sort of, perhaps, a tradition of sorts of "going donwtown" for arts events here? I do find it suprising to think an arts organization like a syphony would consider relocating to a suburban site. Has this happened elsewhere in the US?

That BBC site is sort of their tongue-in-cheek version of Wikipedia. One has to appreciate the dry wit going on.... &...Yeah, i, too, have flown from Dayton to Cincy to make a connecting Delta flight. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ To add to the regionalism concept, here is a map of TV markets. Interesting to see how Cincys elongates along the Ohio River, while Dayton's is more "Ohio-ish" (yet also picking up Richmond, interestingly enough) ...also interesting to see that Lima and vicinity is its own market. As is Zanesville and Parkersburg/Marietta. Lima must be more important than I thought. Time for another look/road-trip.

Thanks for sharing those pix. This makes me want to go back and walk Sugarcreek again soon (in drier weather, as you not, wet trails are not fun!)

This sounds a bit like the ED/GE program they have in Montgomery County....I wouldnt call it 'regional' as its just one county, it is fairly broad-based as a way of getting the city and the inner and outer suburbs to work together.

Believe it or not, there was an ice cream made in Dayton; The Gem City Ice Cream company. The factory still stands on West Third street. Not only that, there was an ice cream cone factory over in East Dayton, in the Huffman area. That place still stands, too.

"The evil madness of the two" ....That was a good observation. Well said!

Whats a Voltzwagon? Is that one of those electric hybrids?

Relatively speaking I find this area pretty flat compared to where I lived in Louisville, which was considerably rugged as the city was sort of situated at the edge of an escarpement and knob belt...lots of steep slopes, hollows, ridges, forests to hike. For that you have to drive east to the "Edge of Appalachia", where there are some pretty good preserves and state parks for hiking, like Buzzards Roost Rock and Fort Hill (best to hike these in fall). Closer in, a place I like that is pretty scenic and not well known is Ceasars Creek Gorge. It is south of Corwin, between Corwin and Oregonia. As you head south on the highway the parking area is to the right (its also off that bike path). This is not to be confused with Ceasars Creek lake and dam. You can hike the bottomlands in the gorge, along Ceasars Creek. But the trails also go up the hills and slopes to some dead fields which are filled with those cedars that one sees so often on old fields. It is really a nice place to walk, and is pretty empty too.

If you like Cincinnati you'll love Baltimore. I spent a few days there about 10 years ago and it was a lot of fun driving around & checking out the old neighborhoods.

Michael, just go for it and dont wait for this turf war to resolve..... I think these citizens patrols sound like a neat idea thats certainly worth a try...anything to save OTR. Though I don't live there I appreciate that neighborhood and just want to cheerlead you all a bit from up here in Dayton.

your probably not going to end homelessness 100%, but this just seems logical... What is so controversial or novel about this?

My sister got her undergraduate degree from Spalding, which was a Catholic college in the heart of Louisville. This was about as urban a campus as I've seen outside Chicago..the buildings where clustered around a few city blocks. It was like a collection of buildings, with about two little courtyards or lawns in the middle. Strange place. Maybe the closest in Ohio would be that Gods Bible College in Cincy, in Mnt Auburn...though Spalding was maybe more inner city and smaller? Her graduate degree was from, I think, Emory, but she did most of her grad work at Wharton and Lasalle, in Philadelphia. Lasalle was a Catholic college, but Wharton was the buisness school of Penn, which is a private univ. like Case Western, I think.

yeah, Chicago is wierd for me as I am a tourist...in my home town. :| Rob, I know you are a railfan, so you should check out that North Side Switching site. They have some interesting stuff there on street running, and the conversion of the Bloomingdale Line into a greenway. One of the tracks running north used to be a Milwaulkee Road commuter line to Evanston, part of which was taken over by the L and CTA (the run up to Howard). Since this line still had freight customers, the CTA had to still operate freight runs over the L! They used old steeple cab freight engines...the interchange with the MILW was at the "Buena Yard" next to Graceland Cemetary.

Goose Island, the only island in the Chicago River. To read all about it here is a detailed article for you to peruse, from the Encylopedia of Chicago. This is Chicagos first "protected industrial district", so it retains that gritty old industrial city feel...though some modern non-industrial uses are here too. Arrived at by this railroad bridge, which connects to the Kingsbury branch of the old Milwaulkee Road Goose Island had a railroad yard and team tracks. Railfans should check out the excellent Chicago North Side Switching site for more info and lots of pix (including before and afters) of railroading on the island. The North Branch Canal, which makes the island an island. My guide to the Chicago River says the current is weak here and the channel has shoaled up to three feet in places.... The North Branch itself, which is navigable here (with big cement opertion I think)' Looking across the turning basin at the northern tip of the island. The church is St Stanislaus Kostka, "Old St Stans", on Noble Street. The neighborhood was called the "Stanisolowo", and was the original Polish neighborhood of Chicago, dating to the 1860s already. This is also the mother church of the many Polish parishes on Chicagos NW side. Modern building at the tip of Goose Island, facing the turning basin. I think this is some sort of research center for Wrigleys Chewing Gum (what could they possibly be reseaching on gum?) Goose Island industrial scenes. Amoung other things there is a window company, a solid waste facility, theatrical supply and lighting places, etc... Looking south along the river/canal toward some apts/condos on the river...looking toward Wolf Point (I just love these rustic names...Goose Island, Wolf Point....they sound so rural, but are anything but). Division Street bridge over the North Branch Canal Halsted crossing Goose Island The North Branch as working river Industrial conversion into lofts Industrial conversion into offices Halsted bridgetenders tower at the North Branch North on Halsted , looking toward the North Branch Canal bridge Southern tip of Goose Island at far left. Big buildings are the old Montgomery Ward warehouses, now loft housing. Chicago--the Venice of the Midwest? St John Cantius in the distance @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ The Kantowo St John Cantius parish. I have a personal connection to this neighborhood as I had relatives living here. My dad went to visit an uncle here, and when he was walking around in the early morning he found a body in the alley. This used to be a rough area. It was the setting in part for Nelson Algrens boxing novel "Never Come Morning" and also the setting for one of the short stories in his "The Neon Wilderness" collection. Now it seems pretty well gentrified. with some examples of the infill/new construction going into these old Chicago neighborhoods. The pix will show this. For me its small things that make a city or set a city apart. In Chicago there are these cast iron railings and posts, with a sort of neogothic thing going on with the posts. And the houses and flats have the entrance mostly raised up off the street. This carrys on into newer 1920s areas and even postwar construction....the raised entry. ...and the sunken houses like in Bucktown and Pilsen And some new apartments, built up hard against the old Northwestern "northwest line" (now a Metra commuter run) just a bunch of neighborhood shots showing vernacular housing and newer infill, side by side.... (czech out the one in the middle..it still has its old brick siding) ..the funny thing about these infills, is that they dont bother to fill in the lot up to the grade. And St John Cantius itself. Though this is an old neighborhood the church was built only in 1892, to take in the overflow from Old St Stans. The parish has a great website...apparently they hold the old Latin mass here: St John Cantius From the website: Fresco: Standing on the background of St. John Cantius Church is Fr. Vincenty Barzynski, C.R., pastor of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish and founder of St. John Cantius Parish. The nave: .....and its well worth following this link to look at the nice collection of altarpieces and sacred art in the church. Have a good Holy Week and Happy Easter.

So, the Cincinnati police let OTR become an "open city" for bad guys becuase of the riot? That sounds like what you are saying.

Cincinnati has a lot of older white collar neighborhoods withing the city limits. Places like Cleveland Heights or Shaker Heights are actually within the city limis of Cincy, so you are going to see a larger white collar population thus maybe more BS/BA MS/MA degrees within the city limits. Yet Im a bit suprised about Columbus not being up there.

Pierre's is pretty good. I'm not sure I've had Graeters. In Sacramento, there was Foremost or Crystal.

The ironic thing that in the 19th and early 20th century we did have a true bilingual immigrant community with the Germans, who where bilingual over two or three generations. This community spoke German among themselves, but English when dealing with non-Germans. This was sort of satirized in old comics, like the Katzenjammer Kids. (loosley based on the German Max und Mortiz) Then there was the German regiments in the US Civil War. Here is a recruiting ad for the 1st Kentucky German Regiment ...and I 've read there there was a German regiment from Dayton that fought in the Mexican War. I guess their officers gave commands in German during combat? Of course this has all faded into history, but at least there is a historical record that the US did survive an earlier immigration, and that an immigrant group did exist as only partially assimilated for long time, yet remained pretty loyal Americans. So I'm not too bummed out on immigration as a cultural thing. We've been there before.