Jeff

....yeah, but is that what is really happening in Ohio? Here in Dayton at least, the "renovated industrial lofts" are pitched to the upper end of the market...not to artists and musicians and such, which was the group that started the loft conversion trend in NYC and perhaps Chicago. In any case I liked that ezine site..it reminded me of my riding around Cleveland on the rapid tranist line during my last visit...you can see a lot of abandonded or semi-abandonded industry as the ROW follows old rail lines.

Gee, why cant Dayton have a decaying industries zine? Maybe because most of them have been demolished? Maybe someone should start an Urban Prairie ezine for Dayton?

Yeah, Marktown is really interesting. Check out that link..it gives the history and orginal site plans. The interesting thing is this all pretty much intact. For some reason I've always been interested in this "Calumet Region".... ... few years ago I read up on this area, mostly on Gary, but also on the rest of the region..it turns out the WPA Federal Writers Project actually had a regional guide out on the Calumet Region as part of their American Guides series...and if you thought the WPA state guides where detailed, you should read this regional guides. So that was a real gold mine of info....and that was how I found out about Marktown. Incidentally Indiana Harbor (AKA as East Chicago) has one of the oldest Latino (Mexican, orginally) communities in the US, dating from the 1920s. Also, for the railfans here, Indiana Harbor is also the name of a railroad. pix link track maps ...those drawbridges on the pix where Indiana Harbor Belt lines, I think.

The old "Chemineer" building is also on the block, one of the few surviving 19th century commercial buildings downtown. I think quite a bit was spent on renovating it and building a secondary entrance off of Main (with that sloping glass wall). That apparently was a sucessfull adaptive reuse. When I was up on the adajacent parking garage taking pix I notice some attic doors open to the roof (the pitched roofs facing Courthouse Square), so another way for water to enter the building and do damage, if the framing is wood. The building has a built-up roof with quite a few penetrations for HVAC equipment and equipment supports, and multiple levels, so there are plenty of opportunities for roof leaks at penetrations and flashing. Also, the life span for a built up roof is around 20-25 years, which means that if this roof was last replaced during the early 80s renovation, it is reaching the end of it's service life (smart move by Danis to dump the building when they did), so one can expect a higher risk of roof leaks, or increasing frequency of leaks. Yeah, the ironic thing about the Arcade is that it was originally built with apartments in it, on the upper floors, which where occupied up into the 1970s, I think, before the first renovation. The original redevelopment concept was to also renovate the apartments, too, but this never happened. I don't know what the market is for downtown living..there have been loft conversions downtown, and even some new construction. The latest attempt at conversion went belly-up, though (the Schwind building across the street), perhaps more problems with the developer than the market. @@@@@@@@@@ I am getting the feeling that we are on a death watch for this building, given the lack of interest in re-using it somehow.

Some more industry. This is near that urban renewal area... ..this old factory will be torn down, probably, for that new hospital. I think it used to be a feed mill This is just south of downtwon. Not sure what it was.

The Busy Corner...aint busy no more. it looks like a depressed area, but note the infill... yeah, i know it's a Charles Scheeler ripoff.... Marktown: "This unique neighborhood was designed by Chicago architect Howard Van Doren Shaw in 1917 for industrialist Clayton Mark. It has been referred to as "the Brigadoon of Industrial Housing,rising out of the mists of industry every few years." Lots of nice open space in the plan: ...surrounded by heavy industry. Marktown has one of the best online presences I've seen for a neighborhood. Historic info and older pix (including old aeriels), maps, floor plans, tours, and a community newsletter. This area was just a portion of what was orginally planned. Visit the Marktown website for an in-depth exploration of this neighborhood.

hmmm.

The question I have is why would anyone buy the tax leins? Who would buy them? The county could end up holding the bag on this. From upthrad, the one on Bonhart.... Well, he wasn't, so it won't. I'm wondering if its even makes economic sense to tear it down. I guess who ever buys the tax liens could strip the building for scrap value (copper, metal, architectural antiques), and then tear it down. The demolition cost and hazmat abatement would cost a pretty penny, but a vacant lot or parking lot would reduce the tax assessment for the property for whoever owns it.

There is a Louisville-style "court" in Dayton View. I recenlty found it by accident, but dont have pix yet.

Some of the interstates in the Louisville area are 12 lane (& that is a smaller metro area), so I find the suggestion pretty reasonable .

Springfield, and it is suprisingly photogenic. I used to think it was pretty blah, but am finding it more interesting. For more on industrial Springfield see my Haunted Factory thread. They are going to be tearing down a few blocks of older housing stock for a new hospital near downtown, so i am going to take some pix of the doomed neighborhood soon...stay tuned for some "old neighborhood" pix.

interesting to see the Target contribution, since they are not locally HQed...but thats not too unusual, as Lexis - Nexis is the big funder for the CityFolk Festival here in Dayton, and they are owned by an anglo-dutch corporation.

You are correct with the regional approach, which is more common in the EU as an economic developement or planning/public policy concept (i sort of indirectly commented on this upthread via my German and UK examples). The Dayton Daily News has editorialized in the past for such a regional approach, too.

..really? Thats interesting. sort of topoic, but what is urban geography about nowadays, or what are people who do urban geography "in to". As for drawing a sphere of influence...here is another approach: map the season and single show ticket sales by location...location of season subcribers and ticket purchasers for the philharmonic, opera, and ballet companies for Dayton and Cincinnati. That could be interesting. Interesting as I know (anecdotally) that the Cincy performing arts organizations draw attendance from Lexington, Kentucky! It does sound that way, but I dont think its really possible to draw such an exact line, especially given the overlapping commuter patterns, and that people may have one earner working in one city and another in the other...but living in Warren or Butler counties (I know of one couple where thats the case), and that industry and buisiness is decentralizing into Butler and Warren, where these counties become empolyment centers in their own right.

Cincinnati is not really considerd local by our paper and TV, though the DDN has covered the AK Steel strike. It is going to be very fuzzy due to commuting patterns and also migration patterns. My guess is the three northmost townships in Warren County are part of the Dayton area, and Lebanon is shared due to access down US 48 from Dayton...its right in the path of development, though its more exurban on the Dayton side. Southern Warren county is pretty much Cincinnati suburbia, pretty clear about that. There is this sort of no-mans land out Springboro pike, say around Red Lion and towards Otterbein and the prison, that is seeing some exuurban development (ribbon development along country roads and large lot things), but not too much subdivision yet. Then there is Franklin, which is actually a communting destination to some extent due to industrial parks, factorys, and stuff along freeway interchanges. I know there is new developpment happening out along OH 123 toward Red Lion...so its an interesting question as to where these people are more affiliated with...Cincinnati or Dayton (or neither)...that area could be the furthest north outpost of Cincinnati sprawl. In Butler county, Middletown sort makes "drawing the line" pretty vague, as it seems to generate its own suburbia. I'd say Monroe is part of Cincinnatis commuter area, but Middletown and its suburbs are somewhat indpendent still. I've heard anecdotal things about people moving to Middletown, but working in the Dayton area. This whole discussion gets really interesting when one things beyond the "Center city-suburb-exurb" thing, in that this area has been dense enough for some time that people may not be identfying too much with either Dayton or Cincinnati, having grown up in a suburb or small town or small city between the two. I did this map a while back on a number of commuters into Mongtomery County, as a way of seeing what the pattern is (almost could include Greene County as the "other" core county of Dayton, the way one could inlcuded Kenton & Campbell counties in KY as part of Cincy) ...so you can see how Warren is a big contributer to in-commuting...but also how counties north and east are important too. Two maps on the DDN newspaper circulation and market areas, againg showing the northward direction of Daytons sphere of influence, with some overlap with Cincy to the south. and, from 40 years ago, an earlier attempt to determine Daytons sphere of influence, from an urban renewal marketing study. Interesting to see how this has changed over the years due to Cincinnatis increasing pull to areas to the northeast, particularly due to I-71 being built. and, for what its worth, a map showing commuting areas as defined by the USDA (as they have an interest in employment/unemploymnet in rural areas). Based on census tract, I think.... In terms of regionalism, the maps above imply that Dayton, as a market area, is probably more oriented north and east, not so much toward Cincinnati, which is its own region, even though there is that overlapping suburbia.

I see it like a European urban region.... sort of like Lancashire... Two big cities...Liverpool and Manchester, which have been traditionally independent of each other, conneceted first by canal, later by rail. (cf Dayon and Cincinnati) A set of industrial cities and smaller milltowns, like Preston and Blackburn and Wigan (cf Hamilton, Middletown, Springfield, and for the smaller mill towns, Franklin and Miamisburg) Preindustrial towns/government seats, like maybe Lancaster (cf Lebanon) Cross River suburbs, llike The Wirral and Birkenhead, across the Mersey from Liverpool (cf Covington/Newport) Another example would be the Rhine-Main region in Germany, with Frankfurt being the big city, but other historically independent cities contributing, like Mainz, Wiesbanded, Hanau, Offenback, and Darmstadt. ...and this map brings in Ashcaffenburg (which means that this region is really sprawling..being in three German states...Hessen, Bavaria, and Rhineland-Palatinate)

Sometime midcentury it will be more or less urbanized. I think that the AK Steel Plant and the prison will work as breaks, as they are undesirable uses which could mean subivisions around them wouldnt be too popular...the steel mill maybe worse due to the occasional smell from the coke ovens. The prison is more 'psychological' as a barrier, though it does own a large tract of farmland as a prison farm. What the place will look like is more a patchwork of subdivisions, strip centers, and open land...urbanization doesnt work as a solid front or wave, more as a leapfrog thing.

Now that I know this hospital site I am going back to Springfield to take some pix. This is a particularly old neighborhood for Springfield, based on some old maps I ran across at the libraries...

Stranger Than Paradise was a wierd movie. From what I recall one did not see much of Cleveland in the flik. You have to wonder what "Joe Nosferatu, Homeless Vampire" is all about....I like the title.

Contiguous urbanization between Cincinnati and Dayton hasnt happened yet. The areas where the urbanized areas nearly touch is in the valley of the Great Miami River, due to a string of older factory towns like Miamisburg, Franklin, Middletown and so forth. There is still quite a bit of open space along the river between Miamisburg and Franklin, and also some between Franklin and Middeltown. There is also open space between Middeltown and Hamilton, to some degree. The big development boom is not happening in the valley, but on the high country along I-75, where there is sort of an advancing patchwork of subdivisions north p into Bulter and Warren Counties. The big gap is around Monroe interchange, by the prison (east of I-75) and the AK Steel plant (west of I-75). This open space gap in the vicintiy of the Monroe interchange is sort of the boundary between the areas influenced by Cincinnait suburbanization and the areas influenced by Dayton suburbanization (and Middletown).

Cincinnati and Dayton are not as intertwined as some think. Also, urbanization is really not contiguous yet between the two citys. Even in the corridor that is most urbanized, along the Great Miami River, there are stretches of open country between the larger towns.

Rob thanks for that back ground info on the pix and machinery. I really appreciated that. Also, interesting facts on that tractor styling. I guess it would figure that Brook Stevens did Allis-Chalmers' design as he was sort of the "house designer" for the big Milwaulkee concerns. You probably know he was responsible for the Milwaulkee Road's crack Hiawatha streamliner. He also did things like the Evinrude outboard motor cowling, the Miller High-Life logo, and the Oscar Myer Weinermobile.

This from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. I'm not sure if the DDN even covered this conference. Rudy Abramson, the tome's co-editor, believes Pittsburgh is more a part of the region than many people think, and points out that it was the steel industry and Pittsburgh banks that "played such an overarching role in the exploitation of the timber and coal down in West Virginia and eastern Kentucky."... link to article IMG: http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20060314bk_appalachia_230.jpg

Good words. Not only am I tired of empty buildings but im tired of the vacant lots that they become.

Springfield was the site of what might be the first railroad junction in Ohio, between the Mad River and Little Miami Railroads. The first railroad in Ohio, the Mad River & Lake Erie, started in Sandusky and was to run to Springfield and then Dayton, but Dayton backed out of investing in it , so it terminated in Springfield. Since Lake Erie is a long way from Springfield, the Little Miami (the second railroad in Ohio) reached town first (The LM was Cincinnati's first railroad). This is looking toward the site of the junction... Any Mark Knopfler/Dire Straights fans out there? A long time ago came a man on a track walking thirty miles with a pack on his back and he put down his load where he thought it was the best he made a home in the wilderness he built a cabin and a winter store and he ploughed up the ground by the cold lake shore the other travellers came riding down the track and they never went further, no and they never went back then came the churches then came the schools then came the lawyers then came the rules then came the trains and the trucks with their loads and the dirty old track was the telegraph road Then came the mines - then came the ore then there was the hard times then there was a war telegraph sang a song about the world outside telegraph road got so deep and so wide like a rolling river. . . And my radio is saying tonight it's gonna freeze people driving home from the factories there's six lanes of traffic three lanes moving slow. . . I used to like to go to work but they shut it down I've got a right to go to work but there's no work here to be found yes and they say we're gonna have to pay what's owed we're gonna have to reap from the seed that's been sowed and the birds up on the wires and the telegraph poles they can always fly away from this rain and this cold you can here them singing out their telegraph code all the way down the telegraph road You know I'd sooner forget but I remember those nights when life was just a bet on a race between the lights you had your head on my shoulder you had your hand in my hair now you act a little colder like you don't seem to care but believe in me baby and I'll take you away from out of this darkness and into the day from these rivers of headlights these rivers of rain from the anger that lives on the streets with these names 'cos I've run every red light on memory lane I've seen desperation explode into flames and I don't want to see it again. . . From all of these signs saying sorry but we're closed all the way down the telegraph road or how about the Specials? This town, is coming like a ghost town All the clubs have been closed down This place, is coming like a ghost town Bands won't play no more too much fighting on the dance floor Do you remember the good old days Before the ghost town? We danced and sang, And the music played inna de boomtown This town, is coming like a ghost town Why must the youth fight against themselves? Government leaving the youth on the shelf This place, is coming like a ghost town No job to be found in this country Can't go on no more The people getting angry ...and back to Dayton