Jeff

I'd also say the historical manufacturing industry in Dayton is why it's more moderate than conservative. When you grow up with unions, you are more likely to support the Democratic party and their liberal agendas. Dayton used to be very unionized, so this might account for why Montogomery County sill goes Democratic in Presidential elections...the union retiree vote combined with the black vote and whats left of the unions at Delphi and GM. The trend here is probably Republican. As the union retirees die off and area de-industrializes and the unemployed factory workers leave town the Defense sector will become the big driver in the local economy. People affiliated with the defense sector are fairly reliably GOP. Me too. The Banks and the related parkland will be probably the best riverfront in the US.

I remember Atheletes in Action used to play exhibition games against UofL, back when I had seasons tickets to UofL games. They would minister to the audience after the game, if one stayed around. I had no idea they where based in Xenia.

Whats neat about the upper photo is that it shows how much housing was in the Webster Station area ..looks lke the pix is maybe from the 1930s?

Well, George Voinovich was mayor for awhile.

When did I reject being labled? How many are active? I said the ones from this part of Ohio seem to be more moderate or conservative, and the ones further north more liberal..thats based on reading frequent posters. I guess if I really cared enough I could do a content analyses to prove or disprove my point, but I don't really care that much about this... And "fiscal conservative" is a political position, not what you do with your presonal finances. You have said you where a fiscal conservative, so I thought you meant the political position.

You yourself are a fiscal conservative. Inkalin, Preservationrestoration, Atlas, and Jaymecklenborg all appear to be conservative or moderate-to-conservative. Unsualfire seemst o be anti-union, which is sort of a conservaitve position to take. Pigboy is probably a moderate. I myself am a moderate Republican. About the only conservative poster from NE Ohio is that guy from Youngstown. The rest of them seem to be pretty liberal. Also, I dont think "conservative" is necessarily a negative label. It could mean a very pro-buisness political environment, which means an area is attractive to new & relocating buisness.

Well, given all the lambasting that avant garde skyscraper proposed for Louisville is getting on this board, I'd say Cincy is probably pretty culturally conservative (yet CAC did actually commsion Zaha Hadid and build her design, so, hard to say...) I think you can tell SW Ohio is probably more conservative or middle of the road just by the posters on this board. The ones from NE Ohio tend to be more liberal, and accept that label while the ones from SW Ohio are not...or reject the label for their political postions.

Nice aerial pix of my "neighborhood". I drive by there every day..I think they are already doing some site development...clearing and grubbing. I guess now that the I-675/OH 745 corridor has built out, this is the next direction for developement...south of the mall area rather than east.

...and I even occasionally post pix of places in Ohio!

But yes, this is going to be one fantastic building. Hope I'm still in the area when its finished.

Ah Kingfish. Pure Louisville. The one in Jeff is nothing like the one that was on this site.... ...it was a faux riverboat set in a water-filled "moat", with the kitchen area done up as the "wharf boat"..interior done up in "High Victorian Bordello meets Riverboat Gambler" style. I think the Texas deck was the cocktail lounge. It was a popular place to take out of town guests, to give them that "River City" feel. (the chain had other restaurants done up on the same theme.

ROFTL! Right, Tony. ...relatively close proximity is the Fairfield Mall/Colonel Glenn/Beavercreek area (and no city taxes), and maybe Riverside.

Unfortunatley it is not. That was a great little store (with that waterfall in it).

Yeah, I sort of remember that, and there still is a grocery near there, next to the arcade, but its small. @@@@@@@ ..thats why very specialized niche retail/entertainment might work in downtowns. I am trying to imagine what a downtown would be like if even things like the symphony or music clubs or government offices have left downtown for the suburbs.

There are fairly large parking lots on the riverfront in Cincinnati as well, between the stadiums. I think those are supposed to be decked-over, though, with that new park in front of the Freedom Center. I was thinking a big difference is that the city comes so close to the river in Louisville. I think that was the case in Cincinnati too, to some extent, prior to Fort Washington Way and the stadium construction. Yet, based on old pix, the old steamboat wharf in Cincy seems to have extended further back from the river... also, there was no levee or floodwall in Cincinnati between the city and the river (though that floodwall is "new", build after the 37 flood). And the elevated I-64. What a disaster...at least with Fort Wasthington Way they have "The Banks" to deck over the freeway and extend the downtown toward that riverfront park, which is a great "new urbanist" plan. Thats pretty much impossible in Lousiville due to the highway engineering atrocity that is I-64. I'm thinking that the Louisville riverfront could have been dealt with a lot differntly than it has been...thats sort of what bugs me about this design, not so much the building itself, but a missed opportunity to do something more with the site developement...maybe a bigger fix than the scope of this project.

Ah..you probably remember when Charlies was in the Arcade, too. They had the restaurant upstairs and the " bar/sandwich shop" downstairs. I used to like going to the bar and have a beer or iced tea and a BLT and sit down in their 'sidewalk cafe" under the arcade dome, watching the foot traffic. Wilkies was still open then and they had such an excellent newspaper and unsual magazine section (not just their porn section, but lots of unsual specialty mags, including foreign things), so I'd pick up the Villiage Voice or I-D (the UK fashion mag) or something similar and head to Charlies and camp out a bit reading and having a beer and burger. Back then there was a Lerners, Arcade Seafood, and McCrorys at the dome, plus the food court in the "pit", plus a jewlrey store and a luggage shop and FedEx place in the arcade proper...so the place wasn't totally empty...and it was sort of a cross-block/mid-block pedestrian route. This was around 1990 and 89 or so. Too bad the place missed the coffeehouse trend, as the Charilies bar location would have been great for a sidewalk cafe/coffeehouse thing. @@@@ Interesting that for me, rereading what I wrote. it was sort of a novelty thing...getting an experience one can't really get in a suburban environment.

Well, some have asked so here it is ...a bunch of site pix, plus some pix from the exhibit itself, with amature architecture criticism by me. Aside from the building, Cincinnati posters might find it interesting to compare how different the riverfronts are...Louisville & Cincy....as they probably where a lot more similiar in riverboat days. This is the Main Street frontage. The diagonal elevator will start behind these buildings, or similar ones. The exhibit was in the taller bldg. to the right, with the arched windows. North on 7th, towards the river and the site...floodwall just visible to the left. Fort Nelson Park, a small "vest pocket park" is off the pix to the left. Rear of Main Street buildings, and floodwall. Brick wall at the end of the alley is probably a stair tower from the Kentucky Center for the Arts concert hall. Just north of the floodwall, looking west. Parking lot is used for the science museum. Framework is for a high tension line crossing the river. Elevated freeway visible to the right, behind the parking. Just north of the floodwall, looking east, towards the Muhammad Ali Center, which was just recently completed. Note the Ali Center is raised up on a parking garage....This facade of the Ali Center has a big mosaic mural of "The Greatest" in various poses. Floodwall and rear of Main Street buildings...and drive to the Ali Center, I guess. This was taken from the pedestrian bridge to the science museum, over an connector to 7th. Note how 7th Street drops down to the left, towards the river, under an old railroad bridge...there used to be an elevated railroad along the river. The parking lot was part of the the old Central Station complex, AKA the 7th Street Station, which was torn down due to freeway construction in 1971, I think..... A bit of history...two pix of Central Station..it was the orginal home of Actors Theatre before demolition (final production was Death of a Salesman in May 1972)....This was the passenger station for the Illinois Central, Monon, and B&O...& I think the Big Four, too. Looking west from the pedestrian bridge..floodwall, power line structure, backs of buildings, and the 9th Street interchange flyovers in the distance...probably originally railyards supporting the 7th Street Station. Present day site of Central Station, parking lot under I-64, with the Ohio River in backround. Standing atop the old riverfront railroad grade, looking towards the site. Under the freeway again looking toward River Road, which is at a lower level ..River Road at this location is very flood-prone End of River Road, turning into 7th Street, going under abandoned railroad bridge.... Final view of the site...7th Street sliding down below the railroad grade to the bottoms along the river. Now for some not-so-good pix from the exhibition. Site constraints...the pink arrow is 7th street & River Road...the green space to the left is the Riverfront Plaza and Belevedere (original design by Constantine Doxiades, opened in 1972..first attempt at public space along the river), with the KY Center for the Arts to the rear. Then the yellowish brown complex is the Ali Center, and the floodwall snaking around the rears of the Main Street buildings.... Flooding constraints, and the relocation of the floodwall closer to the river... Site concept...from right to left..Riverfront Plaza, Ali Center, Museum Plaza (yet the connection between the Ali Center/Museum Plaza and Riverfront Plaza could have been designed better, I think). Parking & vehicular/pedestrian circulation. Another site concept graphic. The connection between the park/parking west of 7th to Museum Plaza isnt convincing to me. It seems like the wayfinding from this parking area to MP isn't thought out...or the path is to Ft Nelson Park to Main Street and one walks along Main to the entry to the diagonal elevator? Another larger view. What I like about this is that they develop a connection from Main to the Ali Center as well as to that diagonal elevator. And a few shots of the model from various angles, concentrating on whats happening at the ground level. This is an interesting shot...shows that the siting of this wasnt that random..notice how they arrange the towers to keep the view down 7th Street clear, that the axis of Sevnth continues between two of the towers. Good shot showing how Museum Plaza is integrated with the Ali Center. The visiblity of a mosaic mural of Muhammad Ali on the Ali Center facade was a driver for the placement of the towers, too Realignment of 7th Street & some sort of tenous connection w. Fort Nelson Park. The plan is unclear how that is going to work. Overview showing how Ali Center/Musueum Plaza does not work too well with the Riverfront Plaza (which is really the landscaped top of a parking garage). Sort of a missed urban design opportunity, So now lets look at the building....and really the thing to look at is the 20th level island... Section..the lower legs are going to be the aparments and "lofts", the cube is offices, & the upper tower is going to be a hotel, I think. Something like that. Close up...some interesting things happening in the section. The gallery looks like a very high double height space, but there are floors inbetween too...all this in a sandwitch between a top and bottom floor. Floor plan. Museum is the lighter color, but there are bands of program between the "open" musuem spaces (including maybe dark galleries and a theatre...a bit like MOCA in Chicago) Two collages...showing how they insert a health club/pool into the museum area And, finally, an early concept..the Death Star on the Ohio

Actually the architecture thing, the feeling of being "downtown", is what draws me to a place like downtown Cincinnati. I know I have to park there, but its worth it for the frisson of being in a dense urban environment...and that there is enough stores there to go "shopping" of one type or another. One doesn't quite get this in Dayton, or perhaps Columbus, so those downtowns are less appealing to me as "destinations".

That was my sisters alma mater. A very urban "campus". @@@@@@@@ I spent some time walking around the site and vicinity and visting the exhibit this weekend.... ...but thats not for this board. This is Urban Ohio, and the discussion i want to have on this building belongs eleswhere.

I live and work in the suburbs, and if I wasn't gay and a music/arts fan I wouldn't have any reason to go downtown. So maybe not a fair question to me. What originally drew me downtown where the gay bars and the downtown library. What draws me now to downtown Dayton are live music at str8 bars and in the summer at festivals, and the various performing arts events. Secondary draw is restaurants. I've been in Dayton long enough to remember shopping downtown, at Lazarus, Elder Beerman, Walkers, and DL Peer. Now about all thats left thats of interest to me is General Suprlus.

Well, back in the day when they where still around, I did like the Greatfull Dead, did see them play live in California, outisde. The basis for this jam band stuff, I think (and the Allman Brothers too). For local jam bands one of the Dayton ones..The Maji...was pretty good..I heard them last summer.

well..looks like someone has already taken some pix. Never mind.

I think if there is still going to be renters and affordable housing for the "working poor" there is going to be some rentals, and I really like the idea of renters associations, as sort of a community organizing strategy...sort of a community control thing, as well as giving these folks some participation. @@@@ The map posted upthread was pretty interesting. In terms of regenerating the neighborhood im wondering if some sort of phased approach would work...pick an area like Pendelteon, which doesnt seem as rough as the rest of OTR, and really focus a big set of strategies on it, as sort of a demonstration project or proof-of-concept or test. Based on whats been said and posted elsewhere here at Urban Ohio, the toughest nut to crack will be the Vine Street corridor..the blocks flanking Vine. That seems the roughest part of OTR. @@@@@@@ One thing about some of the talk about some sort of interpretation of OTRs German history...note that the architecture in this neighborhood is not really German. Its all revival architecture that is a take-off of what one sees in Europe, but its all very American. The "German" features happen in terms of old signs or cornerstones and such....

Thanks to ColDayMan for turning me on to Van Hunt. Good stuff...more my style than rap. @@@@@ For the more folky/old-time stuff, Anne and Phil Case, based out of Germantown but peforms in Dayton. For a good young bluegrass trio, Sawgrass, from Springfield. For 60s inspired garage rock and a really really good live act, The Proffessors, out of either Yellow Springs or Dayton.. Ohio Corndaddys are fun too, more towards rockabilly perhaps (they are from Yellow Springs).

I am going to Louisville this weekend. Does anyone want to see more pix of the model and the current site? I could snap a few and post them.