Cincy1

I also think Chicago is going to present a problem. People were pissed about the change. I think it will be like Dillard's changing all the McAlpin's over in Cincinnati a few years ago - they did horribly.

I am glad you are concerned about the city, but the city and county have been losing population for decades (most older cities still are as well, and the ones that are not have likely annexed). I think we should finally bottom out in the next 10 years or so. Anyway, look at the numbers and this is not age specific or creative class specific. Main Street was a "destination" and depended heavily on the suburbs. The riots occurred, the police slowed down for a couple of years and let the genie out of the bottle, and now they are having trouble getting the genie back in. The media grabbed hold of the OTR is not safe theme, and presto, you lose your market for a bar district. The city certainly has not helped, but these are the reasons the area is struggling, not because all the Gen X'ers left. Also, I find it difficult to understand that you dismiss actual numbers but readily accept anecdotal evidence. That method of case building would get a lot of people fired pretty quickly. I am sure people move away every day, but I also know that people move here every day. If the Gen X'er had such a high level of dissatisfaction, why would that category increase by 11,000 over 10 years in the metro? This is not to say there are no problems. Obviously there are (since the city is losing population - and there are many reasons for the flow to the suburbs), and if the city can get OTR turned around I would think momentum would build from there. Unfortunately, it seems they are distancing themselves from Main Street - who knows why? It seems they are putting all their money on 3CDC at this point. I would argue that city council is the one thing that has hurt this city more than anything else - it has been inept and inactive for at least the past 14 years.

I used Hamilton County because that was used in the example for our "steady, steep loss of young people". I will try to find the city information. To think there is no linkage between city and county, and city and metro is incorrect though. I think this is where we miss a lot of opportunity as a region. When Main Street was popular, I guarantee not everyone was from OTR and Clifton. I knew a few regulars who were from Fairfield, Mason, and NKY. I only go there for the Aquarium, but if you go to NOTL count the license plates from the different counties. The same could be done for the Reds games, where I think almost half come from outside the metro. You do not have to live in a particular zip code to use that amenity. Of course I would prefer Hamilton County to have a population of 2 million with half of the people living in the city. I think we need to do a better job of selling the city to people already in the metro, getting them to move to the cool, young areas. It seems more relo's are willing to try Mt. Auburn or OTR than locals. Maybe we can replicate Clifton and Oakley a few times.

I wanted to respond to the notion that Cincinnati is losing its young people. As a city we have some work to do, as a metro we are doing fine. It took awhile, but I finally found population by age for 1990. I will try to make this as concise as possible. It sounds like they are comparing people who were around 15-24 (born 1966-1975 or so) in 1990 to the same group in 2000. I extended this out to other age groups and to the metro for comparison. For this case, the metro is the old boundary, which would be 1,817,000 in 1990 and 1,979,000 in 2000. I think we could extrapolate for the estimated population of 2.1 million in 2005. Hamilton County Age 1990 Age 2000 5-9 65055 15-19 60987 10-14 58712 20-24 56941 15-19 59153 25-29 58201 20-24 65761 30-34 59493 25-29 75253 35-39 65260 30-34 75496 40-44 67713 If you add the 1990 15-24 year old category it is a drop of about 5.8% to the 2000 25-34 year old category. Interestingly, there was a bigger drop in those born from 1956-1965, but that was not the story apparently. It looks like the county did a better job of holding onto the younger people. As I previously mentioned, I think the issue is that people within the metro are simply spreading out to suburban counties. Everyone has migration in and out, but at least the metro is growing - I would say we need to focus on bringing people back to the city neighborhoods. Many are doing well, but the ones that are losing are the middle-class areas (i.e. East Price Hill, Westwood, College Hill). Just for comparison, this is the summary above for the metro: Metro Cincinnati Age 1990 Age 2000 5-9 140320 15-19 146141 10-14 130917 20-24 130839 15-19 130443 25-29 133383 20-24 137460 30-34 145218 25-29 161885 35-39 163470 30-34 161885 40-44 164469 So while those born from 1966-1975 decreased from 124914 in 1990 to 117694 in 2000 in Hamilton County, the metro total increased from 267903 to 278601. On top of these current 25-34 year old individuals, there are 130839 people in 20-24 year old age group for 2000. I don't care if they live in Mason, Milford, Loveland, or West Chester. If you create an exciting product there is still a market for it, and the city needs to figure out how to draw this group. Even if you draw only from Hamilton County, this seems like a good sized market. To add more comparisons - for Ohio Columbus saw the biggest growth in those born 1966-1975, from 220500 to 246758 (Cincy was second) and Toledo changed from 102010 to 82743. I mention these because it seems both have downtown entertainment so it shows you can do this with a wide array of market size and regardless of how it is trending. So much for being concise.

Yes it is. I would tell you that residential in the downtown area is growing. I would like to get all the numbers, but I would also say that people are unfortunately spreading out in the metro (Hamilton County's population goes down and so does it's number of young people, while it increases in the suburbs). While work needs to be done to make the city enjoyable for young people (and to recruit and retain them), I would not say everyone is eager to leave. I met 2 people at work this week that moved here recently and are enjoying it. I only get out rarely, but when I was in Oakley 2 weeks ago, I met a couple (one from Cleveland, the other from Toledo), and they went to school here and stayed afterward. All of the people I met throughout the 90's stayed here for many years or are still here (from places like New York, northern New Jersey, Boston etc.) Unfortunately, I never thought I would see this, but it seems like people that are not from here have a better view of the city than some that are. I truly believe that everyone is like an ambassador of their city, and at least right now we seem to have a lot more negative energy than positive. Personally, I think Main Street's fate was sealed after the riots and from lack of commitment from the city (police, planning, money etc). It was always supported by people who live in the city and suburbs. The suburbanites stopped coming and those were the first signs of trouble. As when it started with one bar, things like this snow-ball. Unfortunately for this area, things have gone in the wrong direction. I think this has more to do with an area that has fallen on hard times than the market for the product disappearing.

Nick - I wish I had more time to research and respond, but this is the last information on metro population change. The final category is the (second to last is international migration) net domestic migration, which while it is bad to lose, this is not horrible. Year Population Change Births Deaths Migration 2005 2,070,441 0.7 13,598 29,457 17,626 2,262 -492 Additionally, Cincinnati's median age is still around 35, which it has been for a long time, and within the city limits it has one of the higher percentages of college grads in Ohio. There are also a lot of metros which are aging faster (Number 1: Pittsburgh), and even losing population as a metro. When you start seeing the number of deaths getting close to or exceeding the number of births is also when you have real problems. I appreciate your efforts, and I enjoy them, but the market for places like Southgate House, alchemize, Northside Tavern, the Comet etc. was and will always be limited. Even in its heyday, I would say Main Street was more of a place to see, be seen, and get laid. I do not care the age, and I would say especially the college aged people want the meat-market places. Sad but true. I hear your frustration, but I am not sure of what your message is. It seems you want to make the city more fun and cooler, but based on your personal experience with city government, you have become its top basher. Again, you have a lot more room to talk since you are sticking your neck on the line, but I would hope there is some way to work with the city. By the way, I do think the city needs to put a lot more effort in recruiting and keeping college grads. When he had his mayor's night in, I went to Luken in 2000 (I think) and asked about selling the city at big schools around the Midwest. He told me you really can't sell the city, but companies with jobs can recruit there.

Good catch - I am not sure the method of demolition. The structure was 342 ft, and I am still trying to figure out how an electric garage works but it sounds cool. Here is the link: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=199656

I agree that this group is now a little older. While Nick implies we are losing our young people, I would say our demographics are changing. Especially since our metro continues to grow. Main Street actually started from nothing - I think Neon's was the first in 1991. It got to the point that even bars on Vine Street were popular, with the always entertaining Warehouse being the most well-known. Even at it peak, it would only take about 5000 people to make the district crowded so I think if the right product was created it would be fairly easy to support it. The other interesting thing is that I used to think Main Street was going to be the death of Mt. Adams. What happened was that Main Street was mainly 25 and over, and Mt. Adams was more the collegiate crowd. That seems to have reversed in more recent years, but Main Street's demise might strengthen Mt. Adams as the top destination again. I think it's more likely that they got married, had a couple of kids, and now have two big SUVs sitting in their Florence, KY driveway. :evil:

Unfortunately, this is what I feared when Jefferson Hall closed. That was one of the more popular establishments in the area, and now we are going to see the exodus. Whether you liked the bars or not, this is sad because it added life to the area and now will go back to being nothing. I wonder if this will impact the new Diner or not. In all honesty, it seems this area never fully recovered after the riots (most of the bars there had their best months ever in March 2001) and it seems like our men in blue by their inaction helped to solidify the bad reputation of OTR. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but this was at one time a true entertainment district that developed organically. It seems as soon as the city tries to get involved everything turns to shit. When Jefferson Hall closed, I sent an email to Jim Tarbell and John Cranley asking them about the plan for Main Street (at one time they wanted to close it to traffic, make it like Beale St. etc.). Cranley never replied, and Tarbell said there is no specific plan other than persistence. This type of approach is why the Aquarium and Hofbrauhaus are in Newport and the Banks cannot get going. Unbelievable.

I have been through Frankfurt a couple of times traveling for work, and the station is massive. There are what seems like a hundred retail outlets below the street. Trains come here from the suburbs, other parts of Germany, and from other countries. Structurally it is a great looking building, and I recommend going through it if you have a chance. If you do stay in the city, just as an FYI the "red light" district and some centers for the addicts are right there. In no way will you feel threatened, but be prepared for the sights (and to be approached) as you leave the station and head into the downtown. For lovers of this site, there are some nice skyscrapers there as well.

What the hell, I'm bored so what about the next 10? 11. US Bank Tower: 350 ft., 26 stories, 1981 12. Milennium Hotel: 349 ft., ? 13. URS Building: 321 ft., 26 stories, 1989 14. Kroger Building: 319 ft., 25 stories, 1959 15. Federated Building: 318 ft., 21 stories, 1979 16. P&G Towers (2): 314 ft, 17 stories, 1985 17. 525 Vine Center: 308 ft., 23 stories, 1985 18. 312 Elm: 305 ft., 25 stories, 1992 19. National City: 278 ft., 20 stories, 1968 20. Cinergy (Duke): 272 ft., 18 stories, 1929

I just wanted to interject this, but I do not think UC has ever had 44k students. The largest it has ever been is around 36K from all of the stats I have seen throughout the years. I think it grew some when it went from private to public in 70's (at which time OSU understandably tried to block it). Part of Nancy Zimpher's current master plan, however, is to increase enrollment into the 40's in the next five years, but I have not heard much about this lately. This is the most recent info, which looks to include the branches. http://www.uc.edu/about/ucfactsheet.html#enrollment

I have rarely agreed with Scott Greenwood of the ACLU, but I think he makes a good point here. There are other intriguing points of view on why locals should not be pursuing this. This sheriff seems to be looking for notoriety, and every time I hear him talk he just seems like a prejudiced, backward jerk (I also do not think he has to worry about bin Laden showing up or working in Butler County - great quote though). Bottom line again - this is a national issue that should be addressed by the federal government. Interesting comments are in the "What People Say" section. Immigrant detentions irk some Butler sheriff draws advocates' criticism BY JENNIFER EDWARDS | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER HAMILTON - Organizations that advocate for immigrants and for civil rights have lashed out at the Butler County sheriff for detaining 18 alleged illegal immigrants, calling his move unconstitutional, racial profiling and beyond his authority. Scott Greenwood, a lawyer for the Cincinnati chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said Sheriff Rick Jones has exposed the county to a potential lawsuit that could cost tens of thousands in damages. "It's a national problem that requires a national solution, not vigilante activity. And that's really all the Butler County sheriff is doing," Greenwood said. MORE: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060529/NEWS01/605290346/1077

I know this is not a major development, but being off work today and running errands in Hyde Park and Oakley I decided to drive by. This site is completely cleared and looks ready for building with some equipment on site. I only mention this because it was refreshing to read about a project and then see it in person shortly afterwards with actual work being done. It seems like many times I read about a project and nothing is done for months and I'm left wondering what is going on.

I agree that it should have been more residential, but I do not think we should lose site that this is occurring in an area that was an old factory. Any development is better than what is there and it will strengthen an already hot Oakley neighborhood. I drove down Madison today and it looks like all the spaces have been filled in the new buildings built by Boca. Many seem to be boutiquey, hip stores, which is a testimonial to the young residents that probably have a little money. As someone who owns an investment property there I am very happy to see this. And while I still think it is silly that the current retail craze is to build new places that have an old town square feel this will be an asset. By the way Fresh Market also looks close to opening, although I have not followed the progress. This whole area appears to be primed for growth and improvement for the next decade. Add to this the pending Rookwood exchange (on top of the current Rookwood phases), and I agree with montecarloss that the whole area is being improved in retail.

Damn - I had to make a couple changes to my original post. When I have time I am going to try to research how they determine CSA's.

It looks like they are using the CSA's, which I must say did not do Cincinnati any favors. Our metro gained about 31,000 while Indianapolis, Columbus, and Charlotte all added 200-300,000 when they switched from metro to CSA. I wonder how they determined that because these cities are getting some small towns that are pretty far away - is Chillicothe really part of Columbus? In Cincinnati's case, I would not really consider Wilmington part of our metro either. And if they are going to include Wilmington why would Dayton not be merged as it is equidistant. Enough of the bitching because I always enjoy sifting through this type of data. It looks like Cleveland and Pittsburgh are not alone as Buffalo is also losing - that whole region has been hit hard apparently. In Ohio, Dayton, Toledo, and Youngstown also lost population. I hope these trends are reversed soon. And although I hate to point it out, Atlanta continues to explode: 701,000 in 5 years - mindboggling.

I am sure there have been previous posts, but I wanted to make sure I added this business expansion. Sure it's in Clermont County, but TQL is growing quickly and will only help the region (and hopefully some of the pain Ford is going to cause). I know a lot of people in logistics, and this is a field that continues to grow so I think the company has a bright future. [hl] TQL staying in Clermont STAFF REPORTS BATAVIA – Clermont County officials say trucking logistics company Total Quality Logistics will keep its 400 employees in Clermont County and create about 600 new jobs at a new site in Union Township. TQL, which is now in Miami Township, said after talking to Northern Kentucky officials about a site in Erlanger, it had decided to stay in Clermont to build a new facility on Ferguson Drive, in the Ivy Pointe business complex... http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060523/BIZ01/305230008

For some reason, the 2004 numbers do not include this: Note: The 2004 American Community Survey universe is limited to the household population and excludes the population living in institutions, college dormitories, and other group quarters. For 2000, Cincinnati had 13,436 in this category. This would explain some discrepancies for the different cities, but it does seem low. I thought the 2004 estimate was 314K.

Having grown up going to King's Island I am a little wary of this also. While it has very successfully gone after the family demographic (i.e. expanding offerings to small children) in recent years they still have some great thrill rides. Will Cedar Fair try to differentiate the parks more, and other than Cedar Point are any of the other Cedar Fair parks very good? From a business standpoint you would think they would do everything to make them both successful, but I wonder if at some point King's Island loses out on capital improvements to keep the home park strong.

Jesus - both sets of photos are awesome with great quality. It looks like it was a perfect day for a walking tour and makes me wish I could have joined.

I guess I did not realize how negative my comment could sound because I actually like it. It is hard to tell what many of these new buildings will look like in real life based on the renderings though. I also would not mind seeing the two sections stacked as I think height has more impact than footprint.

The building does not look too bad and is in a good location, overlooking Hyde Park Country Club. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060521/BIZ01/605210330/1076/BIZ Oakley condos feature view BY JEFF MCKINNEY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER OAKLEY - A local developer is planning 20 luxury condominiums at the intersection of Brotherton Road and Allendale Drive overlooking the Hyde Park Country Club. The $17.3 million development, to be known as The Lofts@4120, will include two- and three-bedroom condos in a six-story building that will be atop a two-level parking garage. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060521/BIZ01/605210330/-1/rss

I hate to simply throw out a question like this, but has anyone heard about what is going on across the street(McMillian Park et al)? I know it is supposed to be developed into condos and retail, but it seems like the area from where Inn the Wood and UDF used to be to the Shell station has been stagnant.

Good news for Northside. Over the past 15 years this area has developed an eclectic and cool population, and I am glad to see concerned citizens taking charge of issues like this.