John Schneider

^ City Council is not going to vote on the route.

^ There are so few seats on modern streetcars that whatever direction they face is probably not worth worrying about.

The problem with terminating the streetcar at the Zoo is that the last half-mile before you get there will be really dead mornings, nights and a lot of weekday afternoons too. I think you need to get beyond the Zoo. I'd accomplish this by extending the line through the Zoo's west parking lot over to Jefferson and from there to Clifton/Ludlow. It's not too far, even if someone were to ride end-to-end from there to the Banks. Most people would only be going a mile or so, say from UC to Ludlow. I don't think the streetcar gets through the Ludlow business district to Northside. It could, but the traffic engineers will fight it. And the merchants too if they lose parking. I'm guessing Northside is the end-point of a life that travels McMicken to Spring Grove Avenue to Northside someday. Getting back to the Vine-Auburn-Corry loop, one problem no one has ever been able to figure out - either for LRT or for streetcars - is exactly how you get into the UC Medical Center. My thinking is that if you're on Corry Street, it's pretty easy to use Euclid or Eden Avenue, or both, but preferably Eden, to get right into the heart of the medical center. I'm imagining that Eden Avenue could handle both directions of streetcar travel (it's a pretty wide street), and it's a nice street with some grand homes. It would be a huge shot in the arm for Corryville.

^ Why? In order to travel north toward Clifton/Ludlow or the hospitals, the streetcar would simply continue north on Vine from Corry Street and return down Vine to Corry for the trip downtown. I do agree on the excessive turns. For streetcar planning outside of the CBD, life would be easier if we weren't a city of hills -- a city of valleys, actually.

I suggested this to the City a couple of weeks ago -- an alternate to the Vine Street route: Rather than sending the streetcar all the way up Vine to the McMillan intersection and having no good place to land once you get there ... instead ... just past Inwood Park near the top of the hill, turn right off Vine onto East Hollister and travel up an average 4% grade to Auburn Avenue, then turn north on Auburn with a stop on Auburn between Hollister and McMillan. Cross McMillan and Taft and continue north on Euclid one block to Corry. Turn left on Corry and stop at Vine and Corry. Continue west on Corry toward UC and turn left on Jefferson with a university stop at Corry and Jefferson. Continue south on Jefferson back across Calhoun and McMillan to Vine to return to CBD. This plan gets the streetcar to within walking distance of Christ Hospital and right to the center of the Short Vine business district. Accesses substantial office space on Auburn and many homes in both Mt. Auburn and in Corryville. Requires Hollister to become two-way again -- not a problem, I suspect. If this could happen, Vine Street holds the most promise. Jake made a map earlier -- can you post it, Jake?

Two Enquirer articles, which appear only in Sunday's print edition, are fine. Very factual discussion of the merits of Vine v. Clifton. Nice to read a story about neighborhoods competing for streetcar service.

Now it looks like it will appear on Sunday. Three reporters are on the story. It will not appear online.

An article.

Sounds like the Enquirer is stirring the pot again with another skeptical article to come out tomorrow.

Ridership was estimated for the Mt. Auburn Tunnel routing using OKI's model. Ridership was guessed at for Gilbert, and the network effects of having I-75, I-71 and Wasson run together between Downtown and Xavier was only talked about. I know they would be substantial. I mean, a train every three minutes at rush hour. Lately I've been wondering if light rail could climb the slope of a tunnel between the top of Main at Dorsey to Auburn and McGregor and from there on a surface alignment to University and Jefferson. The ought to be a serious "University" stop on LRT going to UC -- it's one of the largest employers in the State -- and this is one of the few flat spots where you could do this and integrate it with a mini-Government Square on Jefferson.

^ This capital cost may not include the cost of building "the hardest mile" from the Boathouse to the Transit Center -- probably because no one has ever been able to figure out how to do it without going through the riverfront park.

Estimated daily ridership and annual cost to operate the Eastern Corridor Rail Project: 6,000 riders, $18.9 million (2003 dollars).

^ From the day the streetcar opens -- no, from the day the first streetcar goes on the streets for six months of testing, we need to ensure there is no vandalism, no fare evasion, no panhandling of passengers, none of that happens. If unchallenged, they lead to the things Dan is talking about. Portland let things get out of hand on the Blue Line, and by 2007, there was random crime and violence that culminated in a 71-year old man between beaten with a baseball bat while waiting for a train. So Tri-Met cut down some shrubbery around the stops, increased lighting but, most of all, started having uniformed transit police board about every second or third train. They check almost everybody for a ticket. They checked Sheriff Leis when he was there. Seems to have worked. We'll all be shocked at how few people will ride the streetcar at first, but it will pick up over time. Until you have a critical mass of passengers acting as eyes on the street, there will be a need for law enforcement to keep an eye on things, randomly boarding the vehicles, checking tickets, that sort of thing. Strikes me the bike cops would be ideal for this. They'd become more mobile than they already are.

Everything in the basin. Freedom Center to Findlay Market. Then it's $2 to go up the hill. Price signals will be important as we develop a network of rail transit. The statement above is absolutely correct in its approach but perfectly wrong in its conclusion. Let me explain. Of the past 200 posts on UrbanOhio here, I'm guessing 50 of them have dealt with the difficulties and destinations of the Uptown service. Whether it happens on Vine or Clifton, the story is not about economic development. One corridor is fully developed; in the other, development is not possible. For Uptown to be successful, it's going to have a compelling destination. The Zoo? Pretty dead at night. The hospital campus? Easier said than done. Clifton/Ludlow? Farthest away, but more like downtown that downtown is with lots of developable sites along the way. So. There ought to be variable pricing based on distance, but I suggest precisely the opposite should be adopted: $2.00 for Downtown/OTR and "Free" to go to Uptown. For now -- until the Uptown network provides as much service as the Downtown/OTR Loop does. Getting to a corner of Uptown doesn't really do that. Here's my reasoning. The Downtown/OTR Loop -- can we just start calling this the Downtown Loop? ... thanks -- the Downtown Loop is totally together. It originates near a brand-new park, through the middle of the Banks, major league sports, large employers, housing in all price ranges, cultural institutions, a brand-new, one-of-a-kind public school, and Findlay Market. No problems except finessing downtown utilities and traffic. The Downtown alignment has never been the subject of serious debate. It's there. And it's very valuable. And, if anything, people should pay more to use it, not less. The Uptown path, by contrast, is not so valuable, at least in terms of what we know about it now. It may hit the centroid of Uptown, or it may miss it altogether. Politics may soon take over. Little development is possible along the connecting route from Downtown to Uptown. Rotating around Findlay Market, the streetcar will be slower than the bus. I think it's iffy. My sense is, we ought to not charge anyone who wants to ride from Downtown to Uptown. Just kidding. I've presented an extreme example here. The point is, fare policy is an important economic driver that may make or break our project in terms of how the market responds to it. This is not unique. Few transit agencies do a really good job with this. Most transportation investments are evaluated on the supply-side, usually by the suppliers, and so they are often over-supplied. I tend to judge them on the demand-side. Correct pricing would solve a lot of the problems in the built world today.

I've thought about this since it was posted; it is a very prescient comment. My sense is that some of Cincinnati's East Side communities, including the ones west of and adjacent to the Little Miami River, have seen freeway systems play out here and in many other cities. And, just looking back on it empirically over many years now, they may feel that the long-term benefits of future urban freeways no longer exceed the costs. I suspect that some of the close-in West Side communities now wish I-74 would have never happened. So, for some on the East Side and elsewhere, the availabilty of cheap land distant from the city is a future foregone but no longer missed.

They need the rail project in the plan to justify the construction of a new freeway-ready, eight-lane bridge over the Little Miami River -- supposedly four lanes for cars and trucks, two dedicated for buses, and two for trains. Yeah, right, lots of demand for that level of transit in Clermont County. And, of course, the highway will get built with 90% financing, the rail will never pencil-out, and someday, someone will say, "Hey, why don't we use all this extra bridge capacity for an Interstate Highway?" This could have been handled more gracefully, and I don't like the way the Enquirer has spun it, but I think City Council finally figured our how bad this project really is -- for the city and for the entire region. Hope it's dead now. Would be a decent streetcar line.

How much was Portland's when it began? How much is it now? When I was out there it was free within city limits. I think this was the best part of it. You could just hop on anytime, anywhere and not have to worry about getting ticket, etc. I understand why Cincinnati's can't be free but IMO it will hurt the ridership. I'd love to take the streetcar up to Findlay Market during lunch but if I have to pay $2 or more to do it I'm not so sure I will. Your $2.00 fare would also be good for the return trip. Portland's fares are only free in the downtown, basically between Portland State to the first half of the Pearl District. They have eliminated free fares on downtown buses figuring that now with intersecting N/S and E/W light rail lines, those pretty much cover the downtown circulation function. So lets just assume that I'd take the streetcar 3 times a week from my work to wherever, that's approximately $25/month. That is still pretty penny. Again, I understand the reasons for it but I still think it will affect ridership. Hopefully not too much though. It's been a while since I've been in Portland but I remember jumping on the streetcar in the middle of downtown (forget what that little square is called) and taking it to the Rose Gardens to watch a basketball game, all for free. Granted that is just outside of downtown but it was great just being able to jump on and off whenever. You may want to buy a combo Metro/Cincinnati Streetcar Pass if one is available, as I suspect it will be. The train you took from Pioneer Courthouse Square to the Rose Garden was Portland's MAX Light Rail, not the streetcar. And it's still free in and near downtown. The Rose Garden is across the Willamette River from downtown, and it has very little parking, so a lot of people arrive by transit. In January of this year, I got the name and phone number of a scalper from the hotel doorman. When I called his cell phone to ask out how to meet up with him at the Rose Garden, he said, "Just call me when your train is on the Steel Bridge, and I'll be looking for you. I'm the guy wearing the black and white checkered hat." So I did, and when the train got to the Rose Garden stop a couple of minutes later, there he was, offering to sell me a $100 seat for half-price. When the game was over, a couple of westbound trains were lined up to handle the surge, and I was back at my hotel in ten minutes. An elegant solution. Oh, and the Blazers beat the Bucks by thirty points.

^ I believe Steve Chabot is opposed to rail in Cincinnati regardless of how it is financed. He has, however, voted for other rail projects, including the $1 billion Tren Urbano Light Rail in San Juan, P.R. Cincinnatians have seen him on the Washington Metro.

^ You are optimistic! Chabot co-chaired the PAC formed to defeat MetroMoves in 2002 -- the PAC the Ohio Elections Commission found guilty of violating Ohio's law against making false statements to influence the outcome of an election.

^ Hadn't thought of that angle. Rather than referring to it as the "Downtown-Uptown streetcar" or simply the Cincinnati Streetcar, Chabot's calling it the "Over-the-Rhine streetcar" -- a term that has never been used before -- associates the project with a neighborhood some Cincinnatians fear and have written-off for further investment.

Here's what Steve Chabot wrote on his blog today: "I’ll occasionally get comments or questions about Afghanistan, legalizing marijuana, the Over-the-Rhine streetcar plan, and just about anything else that might be on peoples’ minds." Note the subtle bias.

Looks like Stephan Louis may be doing all the commenting for COAST now. The tip-off is his describing Luken as "Mr. Transit." If true, more evidence that COAST is losing horsepower.

How much was Portland's when it began? How much is it now? When I was out there it was free within city limits. I think this was the best part of it. You could just hop on anytime, anywhere and not have to worry about getting ticket, etc. I understand why Cincinnati's can't be free but IMO it will hurt the ridership. I'd love to take the streetcar up to Findlay Market during lunch but if I have to pay $2 or more to do it I'm not so sure I will. Your $2.00 fare would also be good for the return trip. Portland's fares are only free in the downtown, basically between Portland State to the first half of the Pearl District. They have eliminated free fares on downtown buses figuring that now with intersecting N/S and E/W light rail lines, those pretty much cover the downtown circulation function.

^ No chance it will be free. I'm guessing a two-hour pass for the streetcar will equal the cost of a one-way Metro fare within the city limits = $1.75, probably $2.00 by the time the service opens in April, 2013.

^ You're probably thinking about Tucson, which got $63 million earlier this year.