Htsguy

Pope, thanks for the offer but it looks like MyTwoSense is the one scouting for the penthouse downtown. Therefore I will just keep my millions in my passbook savings account for the time being. :-D

^Well they did have to put something behind that world class signage

^^^I thought a Goldberg (Ohio Savings or whatever it is called now...Am Trust I think) family entity was responsible for 515. Pope, you are a very brave sole (or maybe just thick skinned). Every time I make that suggestion I get slammed.

Market forces=Most Americans no longer (unlike when I was a kid) shop downtown but in the suburbs where they live. Columbus...dead City Center mall (read the thread). Pittsburgh...lost two department stores downtown in the last three years...Detroit...no downtown department store for years. Baltimore...no downtown department store...I can give you many more examples. Even a city like LA has morbid downtown shopping for a city its size. There are many solid downtown shopping districts (Chicago, Boston, Seattle to name a few...downtown DC with its huge day time population and expanding residential base is "finally" recovering) but they have certain resources that Cleveland does not have and never will. Good bless Stark and Wolstein and others but I have consistently questioned the retail components of their projects. They obviously know something I do not since they are spending (hopefully...still have not seen any details regarding Phest) big bucks and I certainly hope they are right. I am and always have been a big support of downtown retail to the point that I would skip going to the same store closer to my home to buy an item downtown or in an urban setting.

KJP...thanks for the insightful post. It seems to be an expansion of information you have provided us in the past on this thread. I wonder if "certain people" even read them...I imagine they do and simply ignore the facts.

^I really had a good chuckle when I read that there were possibly 13 locations (especially when they could not be divulged). You are exactly right about leverage although I doubt Forest City execs are that gullible. Very sophomoric article.

Pope, I am suspicious of the numbers you quote for downtown residential populations. I have learned from other threads on this board that those who compile these stats often expand or contract what should actually be considered "downtown". I recall a lively thread comparing Cincy to Indianapolis and a discuss as to how many people lived in their respective downtowns. The Cincinnati contingent was livid because the geographical area assigned downtown Cincy was relatively small while the Indy footprint was so expansive it was including neighborhoods that were not necessarily "downtown". They made the point that if the Cincy geographical area was expanded in that manner the population would have increased significantly and would have included close in neighborhoods live Mount Adams. As far as retail is concerned...I have suggested this countless time on this board (and have given detailed examples)....Downtown retail in ALL American cities, especially those of size of Cleveland (and even bigger) is a challenge. It has nothing to do with a can do "attitude" or "leadership". It has everything to do with market forces.

^Agree. Like I said I do not have a preference for sites (just want it to get done) but I do share your concern about the "massing" of the building along the river. I also recall the proposal from years ago and it did seem like it had to be squeezed onto the site. A huge wall right up to the river. If I remember Steve Litt did an article that was very critical of that design. If the TC site does win out they are going to have to do so major design revision to win me over.

I personally do not favor one site over another, but as the article implies, you have to think Forest City is nuts if it doesn't try its hardest to land this. The Higbee Building will be hard to fill for years to come for a variety of reasons and this just seems to have fallen in their lap. I would have to imagine they are jumping up and down behind the scenes even while offering a silent or tough public face.

^My view of the picture is that the work is being concentrated on the corner of 12th and St. Clair with wings going up St. Clair and 12th. On the rest of the block you can see trailers and parked cars. I doubt they would have staged the trailers there if excavation was going to be done there anytime soon. You can see the foundation already going in on the corner and no "digging" elsewhere on the block.

When I read the post the first place I thought was the center of Hudson.

Question? It appears all the excavation is being done on the 12th- St. Clair corner. If I recall from earlier posts this block is being done is phases. However, would it not make sense to do all the excavation for the whole block at the same time (from a cost perspective so you don't have costs associated with remobilization). Or am I just jumping the gun and they have not gotten to the rest of the block yet at this point and they intend to do so shortly? Curious.

Reminds me of something NATO would build in Europe.

I really cannot see St. Clair being narrowed as suggested above. Unlike E. 12th Street it is a major throughfare, even in the Warehouse District. It can often be a traffic nightmare after major events downtown (especially Browns games) with its current number of lanes. Also, it really isn't that wide when compare to other major downtown streets and would actually seem intimate if it was not framed by so many parking lots.

^I have a couple of mindless ramblings somewhat related to what has been discussed above. First, agree with a number of things stated above. My thoughts on Tower City are that FC missed the boat when they could not land Neimans. This would have made it a regional mall (as I believe the closest is in the Detroit suburbs) and would have helped supported the high end stores that were there when the mall first opened. Having a Higbees (rather than a Dillards...cannot even compare the two...Higbees was a real department store...which are really rare in the US now a days anywhere... while Dillards is just a big clothing and perfume store) would have helped as well. Also, it would have been preferably if retail was concentrated at the time at TC and on Euclid rather than dispersing it (like at the Galleria). On a totally unrelated issue (I was going to post this on the Avenue District thread but did not want to come across as negative now that something positive is happen on 12th street but since it was slightly touched on above I thought I would just go ahead here)...but what does it say about Cleveland that it has taken 40 years to develop two of the last Erieview parcels. The buildings on those two parking lots that Zaremba is now going to develop (hopefully both lots) were torn down in the mid 60's when Erieview was first conceived. I know there were many reasons for the slow pace but really...40 years. OK I got that out of my system and now I will be positive for now on. Finally (maybe just a bit more negativity), I was in the Galleria today for the first time in a while and was surprised by what I will just call "deferred maintenance" by the current own (Is it Minshall or Marshall...cannot remember). It never looked as run down (of course it was newer) when owned by the "evil one". The exterior on St. Clair looked noticeably shabby. Siding was buckling and there was large and striking staining. It just looked bad. Inside (no rain today) it was like a rain storm in the men's room off the food court. I would say if was a lawsuit in the making except for the fact that there was so much water on the floor (really a lot) dripping from the ceiling that no court would find liability as the danger was open and obvious to any idiot who actually slipped and fell on it. Also noticed a huge trash can catching water in the hallway as you approached the restrooms. I know the owner has done much to make the tower viable but I wonder if he is spending $$ on the building or just doing the bare minimum. Also was wonder what is going in on the first floor on the St. Clair side. Does not look to be retail.

^While Squires lease my be up soon (seems like they just moved in) I doubt they will move from Key Center. It is a great location is Cleveland's premier building and they have much invested in a very nice space with great views.

^It is Triangle something. Just ate there for the first time on Wednesday. It was fine but surprised by the "crowd". A total of 6 customers (including us) between the hours of 8 and 10.

Great. The more I see the more I like. As an alum of a sister MAC school I am green with envy.

Actually Jamiec, City Arch. (and a former neighbor who is very talented) designed the townhouse I live in (which has won awards). By admitting this if I am found dead in my bed you now all know who did the dirty deed. :lol:

W 28th you seem to be having a problem understanding my comments (above and in the University Circle thread as well...check my reply there). Maybe I am not articulating very well and if that is the case I apologize for that. My point is that you ACTUALLY DO the leg work Stark is doing if you are building 5-8 million square feet. And you do it early on. Right now they are plugging in numbers for the whole proposed project and the electrical aspect is only one of hundreds of issues they should be considering at this stage. That is what I meant by touchy feeling because if they were serious about building shortly they would be approaching the engineer about issues that relate to the initial phase, not 20 years of building. That is why I said this is not evidence of something happen shortly. Questions regarding the provision of power to say a 400,000 square building would, in my mind, be an indication that construction on the first phase is in the near future. Maybe I am wrong but perhaps you should take a deep breath.

W28th you apparently misunderstood my post. I was not criticizing the design process or the length of time it has taken. My question related to the museum's suggestion that they do not want to reveal what is apparently an almost completed design (according to Litt) for two months or more just because they want to do a feasibility study in connection with whether the $$ to build the place can be raised. Again my question was why wasn't this being done during the course of the design work. My point being is that this just seems to be a lame or false excuse to me to hold back on the release. It just sounds funny to me. Moreover, if it actually the case I have to question those running the show as, again, they should have been on this major aspect of the museum's planning months ago. Now the conspiracy theorist in me (pure speculation on my part but lots of fun). The museum is holding back revealing the design so Peter Lewis can look it over and make any changes he wants so he will fork over the cash. 8-)

Some interesting news but the whole "we are not going to release the design until we complete our feasibility study" seems a bit like a cop out. The design process has taken at least a year. I would imagine that they had at least a ballpark as to home much this was going to cost. Why weren't they conducting this feasibility study during this past year to see how much $$ it can raise ? Can the "feasibility study" actually be "how can we pick Peter Lewis' pocket now that we have a design and how do we approach him".

^If true then this is just more evidence that this whole Pesht thing is in the touchy-feely stage. This sounds like "lets start preliminary negotiations" regarding rates and the like for a project that may involve over the course of the next 20 years. I would be more excited if the engineer said that Stark had contacted then regarding design plans for a 400,000 sq. foot building.

Does Stark actually own that parcel? I was under the impression (and actually don't really know where I got this impression other than this board or the newspaper) that of the entire block between Superior and St. Clair and W.3rd and W.6th, he and his partners had failed to gain control to date of the small parcel across form the Rockerfeller Building where that ugly parking garage and check cashing store is located. Maybe I am wrong. Anybody know for sure. Also, surprised that such big news (Ernst and Young moving) has not been leaked or announced yet. That would leave a big void in the Huntington Bldg.

^Actually you are changing topics. I am sure there are other threads which your post relates too more closely. I am actually more interested in other's thoughts about the street scape on 12th and the Avenue District in general here. Thanks.