Old AmrapinVA

Rust belt, my @ss. A Reuters article stated that Ohio had the largest employment gain of any state for April - 37,300. Followed by Pennsylanvia with 34,000 and New York with 32,700. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100521/bs_nm/us_usa_state_unemployment_1

It's crazy, I feel the same way, too. I no longer see him as the best player in the game. And as I was watching the press conference last night, I noticed that I no longer see him as a Cavalier, a Clevelander, one of us. If he dosen't change his attitude when his team stuggles he's never going to win a title. It will not matter who he plays with or where he goes. Mark my words. MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird and even Barkley never quit. That's what makes them great. I was fooled for six years thinking this man had heart, although his behavior at the end of the Orlando series last year was a hint of this BS that just happened. He quit. Until he grows up, he's not going to win a damn title even if it's in New Jersey or Chicago.

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up. Not just be a route to a hub. NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub. In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG. I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market. The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports. However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period. LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away. CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA. The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency. Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland. So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere. SWA has a large presence? Even if they're 10% of CLE's traffic they're not serving many destinations. What do they have 6 or 7?

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up. Not just be a route to a hub. NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub. In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG. I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market. The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports. However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period. LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away. CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA. The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency. Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland. So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere. jetBlue and Virgin America operate in plenty of cities with other LCC's. I still don't get why it would be a bad idea for CLE to go shopping, especially in this environment. CLE seems very concerned about the new UAL. I hope the airport's stategy is more than begging them to stay. The "begging" idea has been done for legacy carriers in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, St. Louis, Nashville, Raliegh-Durham, etc. with poor results.

You got me beat, I just a scrape roadkill off the highways near IAD. I only act like I know something on this subject cause I stay at a Holiday Inn Express! :)

History shows there's been an LCC interest in Cleveland despite CAL's/SWA's presence: Here's a 2000 release from jetBlue (via Tampa airport) on possible destinations: http://www.tampaairport.com/about/media/press_releases/2000/2000_0309_jetbluetonyc.pdf Every Ohio city with passenger service was looked at by them in the early days, except TOL. Here's a 2007 release from Virgin America: http://www.virginamerica.com/va/press/2007/Jan/First-Six-Destinations.html?title=Virgin+America+Identifies+First+Six+Destinations;+Announces+Further+40+Cities+Under+Consideration. In Ohio, they were mulling CLE and CVG at the time of their start. Independence Air made CLE a spoke to their IAD hub. Of course they supernovaed about as quickly as SkyBust.

http://www.faa.gov/news/conferences_events/aviation_forecast_2007/agenda_presentation/media/6-%20David%20Johnson.pdf Check slide 8 from this 2007 United presentation. "Mini hub" is used throughout the industry. I can come up with 1000 more examples. Nobody is making the term up. I'm sure "mega overflow hub" is out there somewhere too.

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone. Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well. Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either. Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

Pay attention. I'm not talking about immigration. I'm talking about PASSENGER traffic/loads. How many international passengers have a final destination of CLE? That information, along with number of people in the airline/airports catchment area that fly to "X" international destinations is what makes an airline consider offering a non stop. IIRC from my people at teh airport people from CLE fly to YYZ, TLV, CDG, AMS the most. AMS im sure is due to the long standing NW/CO relationship. The port? The port has nothing to do with CLE. Although I agree with everything else you say. I've got NY on my mind today. My bad.

While we don't know the future of CVG yet, STL and PIT were not utilized as O&D hubs once the cuts came, they were dropped to "almost spoke" status. And to be honest about CVG, hubs the size of Cincinnati usually aren't dropped in one year. I don't think anyone is trying to be negative, they're just being realisitic about this issue. There's a chance, with the proximity of ORD/EWR/IAD, that CLE could be dropped. All we have is history and history shows that big O&D hubs have been swallowing smaller ones for quite some time now. That being said, it seems to me that CLE makes money. It still exists after the worst decade in the airline industry has passed. The bigger questions still remain though: Does it make enough to fit in the new UAL? Would it be easier to move the operation elsewhere to reduce operational redundancies? I don't know and I don't think anyone on this board does. That's an internal company question that will have to be worked out. As I said, I think it stays, especially with the constraints that ORD and EWR have. Either way, it would be prudent for The Port to start shopping for other airlines now until there is some clarity about this situation. If CAL stays and CLE still lands a small JetBlue operation, it's a win-win.

Delta isn't throught cutting flights out of CVG. We'll see what next winter brings. MTS's concerns are quite valid. History has shown that a small O&D hub can be absorbed by a large one in a merger. There's plenty of capacity on the ground at IAD to absorb CLE's traffic even if EWR/ORD are constrained (3 hour tarmac issues aside). It's going to be a difficult call. That being said, I will parrot the sentiments of others in calling for an increased presence of other carriers at CLE. I certainly think talking to JetBlue is a start. If Southwest sees United start to fade at CLE they may increase service to compete with AirTran in CAK, but I don't think airport officals should see it as the "savior airline" that other places like Pittsburgh, Nashville and St. Louis thought it would be.

I'm not quite sure the airport hub impact is all that great. Detroit has had a large hub operation that is second only to Chicago in the Midwest for years but it also has had one of the worst economies in the nation of the larger metros for years as well. It's also not a tourist stop either. Still I'd like to see the mini-hub stay.

Actually, the most congested Air Route Traffic Control Center in the US (if not the world) is Cleveland. There are 21 such Centers in the US. Cleveland Center is located in Oberlin. These Centers handle all IFR traffic and all traffic at altitudes greater than 10,000 ft. Last time I was at ZDC (Washington Center), last fall, they said ZOB's (Cleveland Center) congestion has decreased by 25% over the last two years and the controllers over there were begging for more traffic. Again, these are the controllers talking, not me. They added that ZDC's numbers were running about the same. Either way, ZOB again is mostly overhead flow from ZDC, ZNY, ZAU (Chicago). Places like ZDC handle initating traffic to and from three large sized airports + flow from ZTL (Atlanta), ZJX (Jacksonville). They also have to coordinate with ZNY about NY's three major airports, Teterboro, etc. And don't forget PHL! Again, there's metering going on at IAD on sunny days when the United bank is leaving due to traffic. You don't see that at all in Cleveland. I can't believe the Tarmac rule won't be considered in regards to CLE.

The Wall St. Journal is reporting that the UA/CO deal is going to be announced on Monday. Let the fare hikes begin!

The 3 hour tarmac rule helps CLE in a CO/UA merger. EWR and ORD (even with the new runway) are too constrained. Even though IAD has excess capacity, it's constrained due to overhead traffic from Charlotte and Atlanta heading over DC airspace along with its proximity to the New York and the other DC airports. Even though there's a lot of overhead flow from NY airports to Chicago airports over Cleveland airspace, it's not to the scale of the flows along the East Coast. There are very few metering initiavies in CLE compared to IAD. Many of those people on airliners.net don't realize it's more than just having open gates and pretty ground facilites when deciding who stays and goes, it's ATC flows as well. That being said, it'll still be based on profitability. I think it stays...although the trans-Atlantic international service will be over for the medium-term.

MTS, They beat their rival that they had lost to 12 times in row! They virtually killed the Steelers chances of making the playoffs. They made Big Ben look like Tim Couch. No only did they beat them, they outplayed 'em. The d-line dominated their o-line. They were rushing 3 and getting to Ben. The d-backs and safetys shut down Ward and Holmes. And they did all this on NATIONAL TV! For once, the Steelers and their fans have to do the soul searching. I know the Browns are 2-11, but it's the Steelers! THE SQUEALERS! Have we forgotten who our rival is just because we've been their punching bag this last decade?!!? I'm jacked. Mangini saved his butt by winning this one. One a side note, Deion is right. They need to pay Cribbs.

GM's overall problems aren't about being "greener", they're about quality. Saturn is what it was: An attempt by GM to grow a "Japanese/Euro-style high quality" carmaker in an era when quite honestly American car production values were a joke. Sure, people went large in the 90's, but it was the quality issue that kept Saturn going even with small cars, practically no advertising and an hostile environment in it's own parent company when Union members began filling GM board seats. The Economist ran a great article 6 months ago on the disaster that is the new GM. Buick's prospects are, not surprisingly, quite bleak. Buick has already peaked in China. Similiar-class Japanese/Euro vehicles there are outpacing Buick's growth. It's a dead brand in America due to the decades of making upper-end, low quality products. By the time it starting making decent vehicles, it was too late and even the almighty Tiger Woods couldn't save it. It never had a chance against the likes of Lexus or Acura which were quality from Day 1. Meanwhile, Saturn had a core group of buyers who had the rare positive view of quality for a GM product. Instead of fostering that view into their other products, the GM board shuts it down. As devastating as it would be for Ohio's economy, part of me thinks that GM deserves to fail and hopes they do. Maybe Ford can pick up the slack from GM, they seem to have a future that makes sense.

It's unbelieveable how GM's unions managed to finish off the best quality product General Motors had. Dump Saturn to save Buick? Buick is as useless as Oldsmobile was. And the same people who helped to make this boneheaded move actually wonder why people in the U.S buy Japanese and European cars in droves.

I don't know if this is 100% true. CLE-LGW also used to get cut early and London Gatwick was (and still is) begging for service. I never heard of this "mystery carrier" wanting the slot back. I still think this "secret airline" business is more CO BS. That being said, there is good news. The CLE-LHR "summer slot" is already locked in for 2010. I doubt CO would have guaranteed this service for next year without making money on it this year. As for CMH, they certainly can apply for international service but they're going to need a sizable multi-million dollar subsidy to operate it...like Delta's PIT-CDG or British Airways' BWI-LHR. The questions become, who will subsidize it from the region? Is it worth it?

Oh, I agree... Hopefully the City would be able to allocate the resources for its upkeep. But I beleive that CLE is the full responsibility of the City. I don't think that Cleveland has a regional port authority where fixed costs and improvement costs are spread out among suburban participants or even multi-county. Take Charlotte for instance. They have washroom attendants! Then, look at LaGuardia. The main terminal is no better than CLE when it comes to cleanliness, though there are better amenities. That's the whole point of the BAA project. It's meant to increase revenue streams in total. As you said, MD88, CO is not gonna really invest in making CLE a large hub with the current terminal/concourse buildlings. The idea held by the city was to jack up landing fees to astronomical levels to make the airlines pay for this "new facility". This thinking lead to a real Catch 22. CO and other carriers never brought in enough revenue from landing fees to see substantial projects come to fruit because of the existing facility was too small and outdated. Even though Concourse D was built using this mentality, it isn't the kind of capital projects that have been done in recent years in airports like Pittsburgh or Detroit. Now with landing fees and concessions in balance (and being accounted for first time in 20 years) there is a real possibility for a solid revenue stream to take hold. The revenue stream, over time, can make the substantial changes everyone has been asking for.

Actually, I put alot on the fact that it was Barkley's second college game, first on the road, in a huge stadium. If you played that game in week 10 in a nuetral stadium, or in Southern Cal, OSU loses by at least 21. Honestly, all the excitement on OSU getting Pryor is really starting to fizzle. You're saying that home and neutral/road swing creates +24 points (or more) for USC. That's crazy. USC didn't even cover the spread. Even the coaches and reporters aren't thinking along those lines. They actually gave OSU respect by being the highest ranked 1-loss team at #11 and keeping the door open for a major BCS bid if they run the rest of the table. Unlike, say, the other OSU.

The BAA renovation of CLE is deeper than just attracting new stores. It's about shifting the revenue stream away from landing fees and into the concession areas. CLE was once, in the not too distant past, one of the most expensive airports in the US for an aircraft to fly into. With the quality of CLE's facilites, it's amazing the CO has stayed committed to NE Ohio considering the amount the city was charging. Now not only has the waste from Mok and others been cleaned up, but by using BAA, CLE is now becoming competitive with other airports nationally. Ricky will turn CLE into a solid facility, just like he did with BWI. It's going to take some time though.

All sounds good, very resourceful.... but I hope that the follow up in all this will be of quality. Sorry, but that is where I have to offer our city some constructive critique because the simple but noticeable basics often lack. This means simple cleaning, knowledge of their city... and a friendlier attitude amongst airport employees.... (can the puss attitude) better cleaning of such things like...windows, floors, restrooms, etc... Not so sure I like lacing the place with more chains though. Dunkin' Donuts? Please! Reminds me of 'indoor sprawl' Those kinds of places are sure hard to find these days! Not to crack on their items, but I think we can do better...it would be nice to get some local Cleveland exclusives in there like Great Lakes...unique things so that visitors are greeted with what defines Cleveland, makes us unique... and not so much the clone zone. Rock and Roll Store.. That's the idea I am talking about. Start recycling too, already....like so many other airports. I'm trying to figure out how Dunkin Donuts is "indoor sprawl". The DD at Dulles is a kiosk about the size of four public bathroom stalls. Starbucks has more property than DD at IAD. I understand your point about CLE having unique items but airports aren't designed just for people that have time to do shopping and stroll the mall, it's also about people that don't have time. I gotta believe business travellers will appreciate DD because it's the most efficient place to get breakfast in the morning. The line is typically 10-20 people deep every morning (and moving) while other breakfast/coffee places in the B concourse (including almighty Starbucks) sit almost idle. Also, the thousands of employees that work at Hopkins deserve affordable items to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It's easy to forget the employee "captive audience", many who make less money than the average Joe, that helps move your flight along. I think BAA is doing a nice job of mixing all types of stores into the works. It certainly won't hurt CLE's chance of keeping CO committed to the area.

This actually has a bigger positive spin for the Cleveland area than the new service. Continental contracts out ground operations for IAD to FSS (Flight Services and Systems) based in Independence. They'll be expanding back their operation after having it cut last fall when CO axed IAD-IAH and CLE. All those new rampers and ops folks might translate to a few more administrative jobs at HQ.

Domestic list: American United Continental Delta Southwest Northwest Airtran jetBlue ATA Virgin America US Scareways (formerly known as US Scare) ASA Comair Skywest ACA Xjet American Eagle Republic Mesa (the China Eastern of North America) Shuttle America Trans States Chattaqua -- however it's spelled. Alaskan (not to Alaska though) Is Go! Jet still around? North American FedEx Frontier Those Hawaiian airlines that fly from island to island Former: Eastern TWA Pan Am Braniff People's Express except in Newark where it was People's Distress. NY Air Independence Piedmont Alledumpy Western (or were they Canadian? Can't remember) I did not have the opportunity to fly SkyBust. I think that's it.