Old AmrapinVA

^^ It's the old school mentality that destroyed the East Side. White flight and all that. Hey you want to fix/improve your f'n neighborhood....then don't move to Strongsville the minute you see a Section 8 property. Jesus, if the people are running a day care out of their house, clearly they can be off Section 8. Don't fire up the moving van and gossip with your neighbors...call the damn city for running a business out of their house.

If Toledo is inappropriate for air service amd Y'town is too (again because you said so)...then surely the Akron/Canton area is as well. Yet lets look at Canton/Akron Regional Airport passenger numbers over the past 10 years: 1995 201,463 202,231 403,694 1996 232,799 232,396 465,195 15.23% 1997 319,386 320,886 640,272 37.64% 1998 349,021 347,376 696,397 8.77% 1999 372,001 372,308 744,309 6.88% 2000 395,713 393,894 789,607 6.09% 2001 355,075 347,717 702,792 -10.99% 2002 448,978 445,820 894,798 27.32% 2003 584,626 580,129 1,164,755 30.17% 2004 680,179 677,900 1,358,079 16.60% 2005 718,238 715,995 1,434,233 5.60% First column - enplanements...second column - deplanements..third column - total pax fourth column - year-to-year change. This airport is one of the most successful in terms of new pax growth in the Midwest if not the country as whole. Yet using Ohio Hub in your context...let's rip out a successful airport and have these folks take a train to Cleveland or Columbus. Maybe Toledo's lack of action in getting passengers into their airport says more about what's wrong with Toledo than anything good about OhioHub.

Oh yeah...I forgot about the original post. You and KJP think the aviation industry is on brink of destruction due to the fact that oil prices are rising. Yet facts bear out the opposite. This year will be another record year in terms of pax flown in the US. It's cheaper to fly now with Jet A at $2.60/gallon vs. 1970 when it was 12 cents/gal. The industry posts profits. I bet when oil was $40/barrel you two bet that $60 was the breaking point. Yet here we are at $75/barrel and the industry is doing better than when it was at $30/barrel. I don't see an end anytime soon.

I second that. Gildone you came on here and said Y'town would be better served by OhioHub, yet your argument has been "I think that's the case because I said so". Understand something about Y'town....we in and from C'land bitch and moan about our fair realm and metro...but honestly the C'land/Akron metro had 12 bad years in terms of population decline..1970-1982...since then the Cleveland metro has actually grown a bit. Meanwhile Y'town has been hammered to this freakin day. Telling the civic leaders and residents of the Y'town area to sit on their hands for another 2,3,4 or 5 years is ridiculous. I give Y'townNews alot of credit for trying to do something NOW. While you Gildone (who I'm pretty sure does not live in or near Y'town) act like he's some sort of fool for taking a proactive step in improving that area's business climate. For the life of me I don't see why air and rail can't work in tandem.

Dollar for dollar, more money (in inflation adjusted dollars) was spent from 1860-1920 by the Federal Government on railroads and railroad related interests than in the ENTIRE HISTORY of aviation industry. You'd have to build an major JFK sized airport in every city over 500,000 to even get close to what railroads were subsidized with in their inception. I'm not even counting 1920-2006. So cry me a river Gildone. Every dog has it's time in the sun. But oh shit, Airlines don't land for free at airports. They pay ridiculous landing fees in order to pay for improvements at these airports. Then the jet fuel is taxed, there are fees for using gates, customs facilites fees, cargo facilites fees, ramp equipment fees, safety and security fees, oh and there's just the plain corporate tax. Again cry me a river. Railroads in their hey-dey had it easy. Maybe too easy. As for the regional argument look at Japan. Japan has the best rail system in the world. But instead of destroying regional airline service, it has EXPANDED it. Airlines compete with trains flying 747 and 777's on routes like Osaka-Tokyo, Sapporo-Tokyo, Nagoya-Tokyo, Fukuoka-Tokyo, Osaka-Sapporo, Fukuoka-Sapporo. No first class on these babies, just 300-500 seats of economy and a race to see who will get where first. They leave every hour AND THE PLANES ARE PACKED. There are RJ's to every town that has an airport with runway longer than 4000 feet like Sendai and Niigata. There's low cost carriers as well. And this from a country about the size of California that has more rail service than the US or Europe will ever have. But I'm just another uninformed American. ;)

I'm not putting a rap on passenger rail. Far from it....I think it would be a great asset to see ORDC/Ohio Hub begin service and succeed.

Everyone relax. Both Cleveland and Cincinnati have both gotten collectively kicked in the ass by their own former residents by abandoning both places. These arguments are akin to arguing who is the best meth whore to bring home to mom. It's the future we need to worry about, not the crappy past. :)

^^No beef with canals or trains for that matter. Anyway...I don't work for Spirit. I wish I knew some folks from Spirit as well..but I don't. But Y'townNews that's a smart move trying to move Spirit there. I'm with ya all the way.

It has nothing to do with the technology. It has to do with volume. Do you realize how many bags are being sent through conveyors during a main bank at a large airport? The last I checked they'll run through belts just like any other airport. But now...all you'll have are belts...miles and miles of them. Belt breaks...you're screwed. Sometimes mistakes need to me made several times before everyone learns the lesson. This should be the mantra of the commercial aviation industry. :)

Since you brought this back into the fold KJP....any new news with this part of the corridor. It could be a boost for the West Side of Cleveland and help Parma's half-assed attempt to build a 'center' of the city with all the new Parma Hospital extentions and civic buildings being built east of Parmatown.

That diversity index is interesting. Cleveland finished only behind Chicago in the Midwest. You think city leaders would play that up a bit. While there are plenty Puerto Ricans and Dominicans on Clark Ave., our diversity is a bit beyond that. Try taking a cab from Hopkins. Twenty years ago...all American whiteys...now it's folks from everywhere. Had some Russian guy a few years ago tell me he had to charge me more to Parma because the 'snow was screwing up the meter'. Riiiight. It couldn't be that you can spit from Hopkins to Parma.

You demand urban and rural, yet it's this fear of Section 8 housing that drives suburbia. Almost every American metro has it's poorest people living in the city limits. Running away from that problem has been going on for too damn long, and has led to the decline of cities all over the country. That's why I'm all for Steelyard...folks in Section 8 housing aren't gonna benefit from new office space...but they can find work at Home Depot and in turn get off Section 8. My bad, that was Wimwar on the rural and urban thing. Mucho apologizo.

^^ Funny...I work for an airline, last I checked my company made a profit even with oil prices climbing. It's not like air travel is expensive these days, it costs less to fly now (inflation adjusted) than it did in 1970...there's lots of room to grow. Passenger rail is far from a winning investment..it's subsidized far more than airlines per pax used and is still more expensive than flying. I'm all for a changing infrastructre in transportation...but you're fooling yourself if you think in a few years everyone will use a train because a bill was passed. Y'town for the forseeable future would be better off with Spirit Air.

^^ 100 percent automated baggage system. Really bad idea. United tried it when Denver International Airport opened 10 years ago. I believe the last pieces went to the scrap heap last year. Guaranteed it will take more time to get bags from the plane to the claim area and God forbid if you have to transfer. I'm sure Delta/Comair is behind this....the less ramp agents they have to pay the more money they make. The problem is that the system is more expensive to repair (and I've yet to see a belt system that dosen't shut down at least two-three times a week in an airport with 10+ million pax/year) than paying the guy making $9/hr +workers comp. It will be an incredible waste of money.

Nice photos again...it's amazing to see how downtown has changed from even the 1985 photos put up here on another thread. It may be slow work, but every year downtown is looking more majestic. The E. 4th transformation is unbelievable...I've gotta go there next time I'm downtown.

I would say the odds of a tropical storm hitting the Netherlands, let alone a category 5 hurricane, are in the category of the Cleveland area having a 95 degree day in January. But "never say never" I suppose.

Nice pics. The best I've seen in a while...cause it shows the good and bad. The hoopty is just awesome.

^^ Umm...Dan. Have you looked around our metro lately. I would say close to 80 percent of the area prescribes to "new=good" and "bigger=better". And you don't need to go Loudoun County to see it....place like Bethesda and North Arlington are tearing up small homes for new McMansions all over the place.

Just remind them that New Orleans has taken that title from Cleveland. :) I don't think we want to be competing with NO! Too bad. The Saints come to Cleveland either week one or week two. So Cleveland will have to compete with New Orleans, shortly. (But I'll root for the Browns.) Just remind them that New Orleans has taken that title from Cleveland. :) I don't think we want to be competing with NO! Since this thread has left the boundaries of the Buckeye State, I guess I get to live up to my avatar. Is New Orleans still under water? No. It is all dried out. Does anyone live in New Orleans still? Yes. At minimum, Ray Nagin. Actually, it is believed to be 100,000 (minimum) back in New Orleans. However, it is hard to calculate this with people still claiming a NOLA address but living elsewhere, or rebuilding (which means they visit on a regular basis), or just not being counted. Is New Orleans back to normal? Ha! Define normal. OK, is New Orleans done rebuilding then? NO! This is a torturous proceeding that no one knows how it will proceed. Of course it might help if there was a coordinated effort between the various levels of government to get all the debris (and abandoned cars) taken to landfills. But much of the 20th century built city (versus the French Quarter and CBD which was built on the original river terrace) is still in ruin. Is there any reason to visit New Orleans anytime soon? Better musicians than anywhere else in the nation. Better food than most anywhere else in the nation. Better architecture than plenty of other places in the nation. We need day laborers, restaurant wait staff, and medical staff (though this last subject is bit tricky with people leaving because there is no money to pay doctors in NOLA right now) Why should I care? You want us to care about you if someone or something tries to wipe you off the map? If not, we have long memories too. I thought people from Cleveland were touchy. If Cleveland got wiped off the map...only a few people would give an s. Most would say it's an improvement or dumb stuff along those lines...so my pity for NO only goes so far. God forbid, NO grows back to it's original size. It's still has large areas that are under sea level, and a Katrina like event will happen again no matter how many dams or canals are built to prevent it. Don't get me wrong..it's not just NO, take SF. Everyone loves the San Fran area...but a large urban section sits directly over a fault line that has produced earthquakes over 8.0 in magnitude. It's another urban disaster waiting to happen. I like New Orleans, been there twice, I just hope a little more common sense is used in rebuilding.

Quite true. Suburban DC has pretty good bus service....but I'd say close to half the residents in this area don't have sidewalks...there are no sidewalk roads as close in as Arlington, VA. All this clap-trap around here about how 'urban' we are is quite silly when I see these roads with no sidewalks all over.

You demand urban and rural, yet it's this fear of Section 8 housing that drives suburbia. Almost every American metro has it's poorest people living in the city limits. Running away from that problem has been going on for too damn long, and has led to the decline of cities all over the country. That's why I'm all for Steelyard...folks in Section 8 housing aren't gonna benefit from new office space...but they can find work at Home Depot and in turn get off Section 8.

^^Musky/KJP thanks for the info. You are right, KJP...there would be less need for developement/re-devolopment in Old Brooklyn and the Westpark areas since they've seem to have weathered the population loss storm a bit better than other neighborhoods.

Just remind them that New Orleans has taken that title from Cleveland. :)

^^ While I think anyone would fully support more passenger rail service in Ohio, Y'town needs a shot in the arm now...not in 5 or 10 years when ORDC/Ohio Hub would get going to that area. Ohio Hub is still just in the idea phase from what I gather while Y'town airport already exists. I give Y'twonNewsandViews alot of credit for trying to give the regional airport down there a boost in the arm by petitioning Spirit Air. At least he's drawing attention to another airline to start service in an area that was completely abondoned by commercial air service for years. Y'town, good luck with your efforts.

I haven't been in that part of the city in about a year. Outside of Steelyard Commons which really isn't in Old Brooklyn...is there anything happening there? It's a rather large neighborhood, and being new to the boards maybe I've missed some of development threads, but it seems to be largely ignored by developers. The Deaconess area could really be a nice area to redevelop into a small urban haven.