willyboy

Wow, the mall or nothing! In Crains this morning. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090209/FREE/302099986/1071/TOC&Profile=1071 It's the Mall or not at all for Med Mart, convention center 4:30 am, February 9, 2009 COPYRIGHT 2009 CRAIN'S CLEVELAND BUSINESS There's no backup location for the proposed convention center and medical merchandise mart that Cuyahoga County commissioners plan to construct on the Mall in downtown Cleveland. If the project can't be built at the Mall site at a cost that can be covered by the tax dollars dedicated to it, the entire endeavor will be scrapped. That message is what Merchandise Mart Properties Inc., the developer entrusted with creating the project, will tell the people of Northeast Ohio this Thursday, Feb. 12, at two meetings, one with Cleveland City Council and one planned for the public. In a statement for release today, Feb. 9, Merchandise Mart Properties said: “The Mall is the only site within (the) budget dictated by the sales tax collection that still meets the programming needs of the Medical Mart and convention center and which offers connectivity to downtown infrastructure and amenities.” A one-quarter percentage point increase in Cuyahoga County's sales tax is the primary financing source for the project. In a separate statement released last Thursday, Feb. 5, county administrator James McCafferty said reporting that a site in the Flats on the lakefront had been chosen as a backup to the Mall site “is completely erroneous.” The Plain Dealer reported last Thursday that the Flats site is the “fallback” site should engineering problems scuttle plans for the Mall site. David O'Neal, chairman of Conventional Wisdom, a consultancy in Ocoee, Fla., that specializes in convention center planning and was retained by the county commissioner, told Crain's last Friday, Feb. 6, that cost is the overriding issue in the selection process. “There is only one site you can afford,” Mr. O'Neal said, referring to the Mall site. “There was only one site we could make work.” Mr. O'Neal said Merchandise Mart Properties and Conventional Wisdom made 14 side-by-side comparisons of the Mall site and a competing site behind the Tower City Center complex of Forest City Enterprises Inc., looking for ways to trim project costs. “MMPI knew that if they didn't come up with something that was within the budget, the whole project was doomed,” Mr. O'Neal said. By December, they had whittled down the costs as far as they believed they could, Mr. O'Neal said. In the end, the best price on the Mall site was $422 million; at Tower City, it was $530 million, a $108 million difference. An earlier cost comparison sponsored by the Greater Cleveland Partnership business group and released last August estimated it would cost $583 million to build on the Mall compared with $536 million at Tower City. Both were more than the $490 million tax revenue estimate set by GCP for the project. As a result, Merchandise Mart Properties and Conventional Wisdom sharpened their pencils and found ways to cut costs at both sites, Mr. O'Neal said.It had the most success at the Mall location, finding two ways to cut the price tag significantly. The first was an engineering decision that they could re-use the foundation of the current convention center. Mr. O'Neal said his partner, architect Richard Schmidt, has followed the engineering studies and is confident that re-using the existing foundation will work. The foundation holds back a water table under the convention center property. Osborn Engineering Co. of Cleveland has been hired by the commissioners to review the engineering studies and to take more borings to verify the soundness of the existing foundation, Mr. O'Neal said. The second savings was a decision to use 80-year-old Public Auditorium on the Mall for a convention center ballroom. That, Mr. O'Neal said, saved $40 million. The problems with the Tower City site were its topography, the difficulty of creating enough efficient loading dock space for exhibitors to move their equipment in and out and the need to relocate Tower City parking spaces, Mr. O'Neal said. A lakefront complex near the stalled Flats East Bank mixed-use project of The Wolstein Group real estate concern is estimated to cost $367 million. However, that site has big drawbacks, Mr. O'Neal said. “It's the cheapest to build, but it doesn't have the other amenities,” such as a critical mass of hotel space and restaurants within a 10-minute walk, Mr. O'Neal said. Mr. O'Neal said the Flats site also is the riskiest of the three locations “It's the site for the next 25 years — if you had development exploding around it,” Mr. O'Neal said.

Yeah, there may not be much of a market for movie theaters , with all the others either operating, struggling or in progress. And you can only have so many "arts" theaters. What about performance space where performing arts groups can lease and perform/practice, or is that also overdone....

Talk is that it would take at least $1 mil to get it back to its glory. I agree that the Mayfield is really a black eye for Little Italy, and it has been like that for as long as I can remember. I cant believe that it hasnt been more of a priority for the Community Development Corporation there(unless Im unaware of something). They are managing to move on similar projects in other neighborhoods that are costing quite a bit more. They also managed to get the support of foundations and the city. So a quick rundown of the others would indicate that 1 million would be a small price to pay in comparison...... The Variety on Lorain is going to cost at least 8 million (they have raised part of that and are moving forward) they are adding apartments and storefronts, then there's the Capital Theater in Detroit Shoreway which is costing 7 million, and finally the La Salle on E.185 which will cost 1.4 million to restore.

Will you be there GreenerPastures?

I thought Jim wrote a great article, even with the quotes from the convention-business guys. It lays out a lot of the facts and unanswered questions in a very clear and simple manner. Something that we rarely see out of the PD. Except they always seem to leave out the same issues (that should be issues) every time. Wheres the question about the cost of not choosing the mall site (for maintaining the current facilities) or what to do with it? Where are the opinions of the Urban Planning experts (interesting that they quote the convention people about why the mall site is bad, but not their own Steven Litt about why the mall site is good but tower city is bad)? Why is there never any mention of why it might be good to build on Cleveland's (past and impressive) assets.... as opposed to disregarding and abandoning them....?

According to this it is the Rock Hall Library....... or the building that the library is located in. The new Library and Archives will open at the Cuyahoga Community College’s Metro campus in downtown Cleveland. The 18,000-square-foot facility will be housed within the college’s new Center for Innovation in the Arts. http://www.rockhall.com/support/capital-support/ or this gives a good rundown: http://www.indexc.com/News/Story/Tri-C-Metro-Campus-Center-for-Innovation-in-the-Arts

Probably (early) March. Valentines day was the goal but........ It likely wont be by then..

Ok... But then what are all of us dorks going to do over the weekend..!

While this is good for Parker, I just wish it benefitted manufacturing emloyment in Cleveland... "The work, however, will be performed at the company's Irvine, Calif.; Devens, Mass.; and Fort Worth, Texas, facilities."

Certainly Urban planners and business leaders/convention planners have different objectives, with the business leaders/convention planners advocating what is "best" (easiest) for the (lazy) conventioneer, usually at the expense of good planning principles. That was part of the problem with the team that was put together by GCP for recommending a site.... not a single planner or architect on the team, thus the selection of Tower City (which Steven Litts article points out the lacking planning principles) in favor for connectivity with the idea of connecting everything to Tower City that isn't already..... http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/08/the_proposal_to_locate_a.html "Worse still, backers of the convention center and medical mart proposal want to build a large new system of underground and overhead walkways to connect the new facilities at Tower City Center to the rest of downtown. That's truly creepy. The report released yesterday by civic leaders who recommended the Tower City location said that an efficient system of walkways "would be the only one in the country that could allow the business traveler from the airport to come directly to the new convention/medical mart complex and related amenities without confronting a challenging climate at any time during the year."...

"In a lawyer like manor" Which would mean by a lawyer..... (junior) :wink: Edit: I see now that my initial assumption was incorrect. Not what I remembered but makes sense as well.

So is that to say that the Mall site estimate released by the GCP was totally fabricated? So since Forest City is suddenly crying for transparency, then shouldnt that come out?

Thats exactly what I was thinking but didnt know how to put it into words.

In 30 years, what we consider attractive architecturally will likely be considered hideous. In the 1950s and 60s, Victorian design was considered awful as architects were on a binge for everything modern. Now we consider Victorian beautiful and the post-war modernity to be offensive. You can never predict how tastes will change, but you can predict one thing -- tastes will change! I agree with this to a degree. However, one must take into consideration the astronomical costs the projects of the early 1900's would be if they were created in the 1950's/1960's. Labor costs shot thru the roof (min. wage laws, FLSA, host of other regs), and thus something like the Convention Center/City Hall/homes in Ambler Hts, would have been too costly. this would explain why they dont "build them like they used to" but that wouldnt necesarily explain why they would have covered up the very beautiful structures of the early 1900's with metal sheeting and such, unless your saying they did it because it was too expensive to maintain. Also you have to realize that our country isnt very old and that we havent experienced that many periods of architecture. I'd like to think that we've learned from past mistakes (thus the removal of the metal sheeting and the restoration of ornate structures) as well as developed a respect for the past and its wonderful craftsmanship. Isn't this the case in older parts of the world? They and we are not necessarily trying to replicate the same architecture of the early 1900's but at the same time have developed an appreciation for it.

Dont forget this was also on his Chicago agenda.... The mayor said he has heard that MMPI staffers came to Cleveland with a "predetermined conclusion" about the location that didn't take into account research by the Greater Cleveland Partnership that recommended the mart be built at Tower City. and again duh, they knew the research by the GCP was flawed and one-sided so they did their own research and.....

Yes huge, but that level of windows is also taller than the other levels (more than a foot), and the redone one above is nearly (not quite) half that size in height.

"and there is really nothing of any appeal left on Buckeye." Hey, Lucy's is still there for the time being! Otherwise its totally about imrans comfort level and what he's used to. I would probably agree with Straphangers assessment for me, but then Im also not as threatening and tough as MTS.

Well I hadn't heard anything about the current cutouts not being the actually size when everyone was commenting on the huge size of the windows (when more are done you will see what a reduction in size it is). Still a nice size and should make for great street presence.

Not saying Im for the OCB, but doesnt Fairfax CDC have a board made up of residents of the neighborhood like others (such as Ohio City) Or is it heavily filled with people from institutions such as the clinic? While I agree that the public participation process would be different if the neighborhood were affluent or middle class, Im not sure what that says or does for the argument, since that is comparing a likely stable and healthy neighborhood where people are going to feel a stake to something that is pretty much ravaged and mostly un-occupied (is it to say that people dont care here (because they are not affluent or middle class)?, and if thats the case, why should people that are not residents care?) Just asking for opinions....

Looks like they are cutting down the size of the window openings quite a bit. Still it will be great!

Yeah, I dont get why Frank doesnt seem to want this site... When he went to Chicago, one of his concerns was that MMPI wasnt taking the Tower City site seriously. It may have been stated before, but what was his relationship with the Ratners?

You mean there are no bars on the window? If not, I would say it is rather safe. Here in DC it is un-heard of for anything below the second story to not have bars over the windows.

Actually $1 billion in taxpayer money.

And judging by the statements made, MMPI will want more time to meet with and consider the lakefront/FEB option while the Commissioners realize they will be skewered if it is pushed back any more and a decision isnt made...

Oh wait its still not over today...!?!?!? whatever. :wtf: :wtf: Commissioners restart meeting with medical mart partners Posted by Joe Guillen/Plain Dealer Reporter January 22, 2009 15:27PM CLEVELAND -- Cuyahoga County commissioners restarted a closed-door meeting with its private partner in the medical/mart convention center project this afternoon shortly after public announcements that there would be no decision made on where to locate the project. Commissioners and executives of Merchandise Mart Properties had to go down Justice Center elevators and walk across Ontario Street to the nearby county building to get going again around 3 p.m. The latest meeting essentially was a resumption of a suspended executive session that followed the commissioner's weekly meeting this morning... All the while, private developers in New York City are studying plans to build a medical mart there. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/commissioners_restart_meeting.html