Chris314

For me, the fundamental issue is what helps the city of Cleveland more. I have gone from a lifelong fan of the Browns to what can best be described as passive dislike over the last decade, but I also won't deny that having an NFL franchise is on balance probably good for the city/region. But the question then becomes how much of a benefit. There are cultural and PR-based benefits (though for a while, I'd argue the Browns hurt the region's reputation in that regard, but I digress), and there are monetary benefits. From a monetary perspective, the Browns do little-if-anything to help the city. If that was all this was about, I'd say let them go to Brookpark. But, as has been stated elsewhere, they are not talking about just moving the team to a nearby suburb. They also want to siphon off a huge amount of community resources and dollars and events, etc. This changes the dynamic of having a team that offers a slight benefit to the region into being a net drain. Regardless of the proposed developments around the stadium, they are pitching this as a way to get concerts and other events. From where will these events come? There are few events that draw crowds of the size that warrant an NFL arena. Having one Taylor Swift/Rolling Stones event per year is not enough to justify this. Which means many of the events will be smaller, ones that would otherwise likely be coming to Cleveland already and playing at the Fieldhouse, the Wolstein Center, or elsewhere. This is what I am against. The Haslams want to drain as much as they can from the region, and are not concerned with how it affects anyone outside of themselves. I remain incredibly skeptical of everything they say, as they've never shown themselves to be forthcoming or honest before (see the Flying J fiasco). So, when I hear people talk about how bad of shape the stadium is in, I ask where that is coming from. It's coming from a report the Haslams paid to create. Maybe it's true, but it sounds to me like those old reports the tobacco industry would put out about the benefits of smoking. The lakefront should be developed. It CAN be developed with a stadium there. It can also be developed WITHOUT one there. The question is, what is better for the city. The way I see it, the Browns bring little monetary benefit, once we account for everything, but they're not the potential net drain on the region they'd become by moving to Brookpark, siphoning huge amounts of tax dollars that could be better spent elsewhere and poaching events that would otherwise happen in the world-class facilities we already have. I don't care about the fan experience, I don't care about gameday traffic, and I honestly don't care if the Haslams get rich if they do so with developments that actually happen downtown/help the city (which could happen with the current stadium and is absurdly unlikely if they move to Brookpark). What is good for the future of Cleveland? At the end of the day, that is what matters. Sorry for the rant.

I'm just going to say that, as someone who lives and works in Cleveland and is generally super in-favor of having more public transit options, there should be a window of free parking for people for a short period (15 minutes used to be common with coin meters). This encourages quick turnaround (and discourages people clogging the area) without being a detriment to local businesses. As someone who got ticketed for parking at a meter for less than 5 minutes to patronize a local bookstore, I can say that the lack of place to briefly park has deterred me from the area. I feel like a 15-minute window is a good option that balances both desires well.

Does it make sense to rename this thread?

Why feel guilty? People need a place to use the bathroom, and at least this use of the facility fits in with the quality of its ownership.

The Flats is a very different thing, with what seems to be a very different use case. The Flats is right downtown, not downtown-adjacent, and the difference in density between that and what could be done with the land at Burke is monumental. The Flats are clustered in a way where, while they get access to the river, they don't open onto the lake in nearly the same way. The uses are much more constrained. Either a park or development (or both) on Burke could allow a variety of different uses appealing to a broader swath of people. It could be easily more accessible from multiple directions across the region. If planned correctly, there could be room for business-oriented projects, residential uses, and open public spaces. The Flats doesn't cater to families, whereas this could. And not for nothing, while I admit that I don't go down there very often, but the Flats are always busy when I visit. So, I'm not sure the argument that we can't fill out the Flats is as valid now as it was a decade ago. Certainly there needs to be more work done. But any project that attracts more residents downtown and more diverse groups into the city is going to be a net benefit. Also, from my understanding, Burke's FAA-mandated role could be replaced by the Cuyahoga County Airport with a reasonable amount of accommodations. In 20 years, we can either be working our way towards a grand new lakefront or we can still be arguing over the same waste of space. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, but the second best time is today. I am all in favor of the Bibb people trying to seriously get the ball rolling.

Nucleus 5.0 confirmed?!?!?!? /s

Who is paying this tax? is it just Cuyahoga County? Or are the 6 bordering counties also included? Further out? Honestly, if we're going to raise the sales tax again, it ought to be used to pay for things that have a wider benefit than stadiums. Progressive Field is undergoing a renovation now and should be perfectly usable (with maintenance) for decades, if not longer. There's no reason it couldn't be Cleveland's version of Fenway, which is over 100 years old. RMFH is in great shape, too. The only people looking for a new home are the Browns, and that's driven 95% by vanity. Basically, there are better uses for these dollars. Improving/rebuilding the airport is probably a good idea (assuming we mean Hopkins), but what else is being proposed here to justify a tax that is ultimately pretty regressive and will be a bigger burden to lower-income folks to benefit billionaires? Where's the beef?

This is looking better by the day:

People complain about the trees here all the time, but I think we need to get on the city about the utter disgrace some of the downtown streets are in. I was walking by the Daily Planet on Saturday, and just LOOK at the condition of the roads!!!! The Bibb administration should be ashamed! I was only passing by, but it had clearly caused at least one accident! Typical City of Cleveland, leaving these potentially dangerous eyesores everywhere! /s Ok, now seriously, they've turned Superior into downtown Metropolis for filming of the new Superman movie (which, based on the flag, apparently they're putting Metropolis in Delaware?). The best places to get a look are the second floor windows from the Stokes wing of the library or through the grating in the middle park/annex area. Obviously this is exciting, but I wonder what is being done with the actual businesses that are there. Also, once the rubble is cleared up, will the city use this as a chance to do any beautification on the area? Do the movie people just make it look like it was? Anyone know? Also, this seemed like the most logical thread for this, but if it fits better elsewhere...sorry...

I don't like the public paying for any of it, but with the Fieldhouse and Progressive, we see more than a hundred games downtown that massively inject people into the streets. And, by my estimation, the renovations of both have come at a fraction of the cost that the Browns are asking for. The Haslams want us to shell out exponentially more for a fraction of the benefit. No thank you. That being said, there's little doubt that aspects of the renovations are big draws to the ballpark. Jacobs Field was a gen when it opened, but the injection of restaurants and standing room areas in right field have been a massive boon to anyone who goes to games, and that does encourage people to want to go back. The current scoreboard is much easier to read than the old ones. However, I'll also point out that a big driver of the massive attendance boom has been making cheaper tickets more available. They replaced expensive, and often-empty, lower-deck tickets with affordable standing room areas that encourage people to come in groups and buy drinks at the game. That is the definition of win-win. Overall, it's cheaper to go there and get a couple of overpriced beers and a hot dog than it is to sit in the not-super-comfortable seats which are only a few yards away. That's a big takeaway. And while I would have preferred if Gilbert would have paid for all the Fieldhouse updates himself, he's also building facilities in downtown along the riverfront that will do more good for the city than anything the Browns have proposed so far. Do any of us foresee the Browns trying to make it CHEAPER to get into Cleveland Stadium after these renovations? Do any of their ideas make it easier or more affordable to go to a game? My aunt and uncle have been season ticket holders since the Browns came back, and recently my uncle said "Getting Browns season tickets has been the worst economic decision I've ever done." This guy has been a diehard fan, and between the stadium shenanigans and the Deshaun Watson drama, he's considering giving up his tickets. When I heard that, my jaw hit the floor. I don't think the Haslams realize the long-term damage they've done to the fanbase. Certainly I'm not giving them another dime, and I hope Bibb fights so that the city doesn't pay out a penny more than necessary. Long-term, we should be prioritizing what will actually help the city and activate our lakefront. I don't mind letting the Haslams be part of that development, but it can't be a one-sided affair. There needs to be reciprocity and mutual benefit for the people of Cleveland. Not the people of Summit County or Avon, but the Clevelanders who live here and are being asked to foot the bill. The "fan experience" is about a mile-and-a-half down the list of concerns this city has. Sorry, rant over.

Just some updated pics of the sideview of CentroVilla25 from our parking lot (and one shot our our building to show what it is across the lot from).

Politicians can (and should) be held accountable. The Haslams weren't elected, yet they have a huge influence over the lives of people in this region and show no sense of public responsibility. Love him or hate him, Bibb works for us and so we should want him to do a good job. That doesn't mean he will, but it's in the public interest to encourage him to get the best deal for the city. If that means being a little coy during negotiations, I'm fine with that. Whatever they come up with should also, at a minimum, be shared with the public before the contract gets signed (or ideally put to a vote).

I think they should talk more when they actually have something to talk about. Keep in mind that they're negotiating with a group who, at best, have different goals, and at worst are arguing in bad faith to extort the city. Sometimes, you have to play things close to the vest when negotiating. If that gets the best deal for the city, then I support it. But right now, what is there for them to say? We know what the Haslams want; we know what the city and county have offered. If the Haslams would make up their mind about what they're going to do, the city could move forward either way. Instead, it's the Haslams who are dragging their feet because inflicting delays gives them more leverage and they know it. This is a bunch of greedy billionaires putting their needs above the city, the region, and the team and what drives me nuts is that they are derailing the best momentum we've had on this front in my lifetime. Meanwhile, both the Guardians and the Cavs contribute much more to the city (see the Cavs riverfront facility) and cost us a LOT less. So let's give Bibb the latitude he needs to actually negotiate, because it's bad for everyone if the city gets hosed for the benefit of the Haslams.

You can't see it in these images, but the building I work in is next door and has a very strange paint scheme as well (on the bottom portion) with a semi-mural thing. It would be great if our landlord would actually extend the color/design up the whole wall instead of the half-measure it has.

So, it's going in right next to the Rallys? That's a pretty busy/noisy stretch for a group of seniors.

Progress continues on CentroVilla25:

If we're sharing pictures... [Taken on Sunday evening]

Do they have a timetable for when they plan to demolish the towers? Because I thought it was going happen already. I actually kind of love them, and brutalism in general, but keep hearing they're eventually coming down.

If I can offer a different perspective: I grew up in Olmsted Township/Falls. When I was small, there were still open fields across MacKenzie Road. By the time I was in middle school, the Villages of Lakeside was a massive development which we moved into. We went from having a tiny house on nearly an acre of land to having a big house built on a postage stamp. The experience sucked (for a lot of reasons). I feel like one of the only benefits to suburbs is their openness. As an adult, I prefer urban density, but those big developments destroy the distinct culture that small communities like Olmsted Falls once had. Sorry to editorialize, but I feel like these places should be allowed to stay quiet little burbs, and cities should add housing at multiple income levels so people can afford to live in the city proper. This gives people a choice of what kind of lifestyle to embrace. However, it feels like every West Side suburb looks enviously at Crocker Park and prioritizes development over the community they already serve. Stretching our region to past the borders of Cuyahoga County is counter-productive to regional stability, and it homogenizes the individual communities rather than helping them really grow.

Longtime lurker here (since the downtown Hilton was announced), first-time poster. I work at 25th and Clark, and I can tell you that they've been working on this every day. There's clearly work going on inside and out. They've cut new openings in the walls that have been filled in with bricks and doors. Late last year, they demolished a pair of houses that used to be behind my building's parking lot, and there is a lot of machinery on site pretty consistently. The pic from November 7th doesn't quite show how much traffic is affected by the Jersey barriers blocking off part of the street, but the sidewalk in front is closed along with one lane of traffic, so people are constantly walking in the street rather than crossing to the other side.