jam40jeff

The NHL has more room for upward movement. I don't think the NHL will become close in overall popularity to the NBA any time soon (attendance plus TV viewership), regardless of what a forum on ice hockey may think.

Harold Miner :lol:

That's not a fair fight.

Clevelander, I understand many of your concerns and I've heard them from many other people. It will do no good (at least in the context of regionalism) to argue whether the concerns are exaggerated or not, which areas are unsafe, etc. Perception is reality, and if that is the perception of the people, it is an important point to consider in the discussion. The point I don't understand is why people think cities themselves cause this to happen and how changing city boundaries will affect demographics. I feel that if anything, it's school district boundaries that have a much bigger impact on suburban flight. That's fine. I can respect your view of the school system. By no means do I think that there aren't changes that need to be made. But once again, this is a discussion unrelated to regionalism in the CH-UH context (and any other regionalism discussion where school boundaries would remain unchanged) as the school district is already a "sunk cost" for residents that don't use it. And there are all types in between. And some people transition from one end to the other. And nobody wants to live next to the guy that has no respect for the law or his neighbor. But I'm not sure what this has to do with cities banding together. I don't think that Cleveland Heights does anything specifically to attract "bad neighbors" or entice them to move to its fair city. I don't think University Heights does anything specific to prevent it from happening, either. The best way for neighborhoods to remain stable, regardless of race or integration level, is for the people and businesses to take a vested interest in their own community. I think you see that in areas of all three Heights cities, and I don't see how city borders determine which areas have been preserved more, which areas have lower crime, which areas have the perception of being desirable, etc.

No idea where you got that from. Not that it's any of your business, but 13 years of public schooling for me.

Do you think all residents of the city of Cleveland in poverty are "living the dream off of the government"? Honest question. Absolutely not. I have a few good friends living in the city who are professionals. Are you good friends (that are professionals) in poverty? Reread my question. You seem to associate "people in poverty" with "moochers." Have you ever considered that there are a lot of people in poverty desperately trying (and often times failing) to change the situation they're in? Do you really think the majority of people on public assistance enjoy it?

You just put words into my mouth. I was claiming that there are costs associated with people that do not live in the city simply to prove that a population loss does not offset the concerns of an income tax loss.

Yes, but the loss in income tax revenues was proportionally greater than the loss of population, since it was also due to job losses and pay cuts. Further, he must provide many fixed services regardless of population (road maintenance, snow removal) and many services to a large population that does not live in the city (police and fire services benefiting suburban employees and attendees at Indians, Browns, Cavs games, etc.). A 10% population loss does not mean a reduction in the need for 10% of the city's services. Also, the loss of income taxes is likely a much higher percentage than the loss of population.

Do you think all residents of the city of Cleveland in poverty are "living the dream off of the government"? Honest question.

Where's your proof it's having no effect? Cleveland Heights High School has its problems, of course. But it also still has more NMSFs and graduates moving on to Ivy League schools that many exurban high schools. Maybe that spending is keeping some of the upper income kids from fleeing the school. How do you know CHHS wouldn't be more like Shaw without the community investment? I'll bet you've never even stepped a foot inside that school. I assume you would love to bitch and moan how the city was doing nothing about the problems if per pupil spending was low and a couple years later the school made CMSD look real attractive. But you ignore any positive effects the spending may have in the face of some tough conditions (mainly poverty) that other inner ring school districts haven't fared so well against.

Is it possible to separate "white flight" and the reasons for it from a discussion on regionalism?

There's a good way to start a post. Your elitist views really shine through, not only in the content of what you say, but in the form as well. The reality is that there are problems, but running from them is a bad long-term strategy.

Correct, the speed limit shouldn't be an issue if there are no grade crossings. Just slap a few speed cameras along there, and you'll have some extra revenue from the impatient ones (there will be many) who "just can't afford" that extra 90 seconds on their commute.

Would unregistered voting make it more scientific? :P

Or, as Clevelander17 has already pointed out, the west side of University Heights.

Higher than Mount Union OK, I ported a d3boards.com OAC joke to the UrbanOhio regionalzation thread. Yikes.

By the way, the per capita income for CH and UH are nearly identical, whereas SE is almost $4,000 lower. So I'm assuming you just want the lowest percentage of African-Americans possible when you speak of "demographics"?

Huh? Are you saying there are no orthodox Jewish people in Cleveland Heights? Many people in Cleveland Heights send their kids to private schools as well. The schools aren't really an issue here, though, since CH and UH already share the same school district. Do cities need to be demographically homogeneous? Even so, SE isn't much more like UH than CH is. If anything, SE is more similar to CH (especially with respect to average household income). Although if it's % black that you're worried about (I think that' the elephant in the room), sure, you could shun the 41% black city and associate yourself with a 21% black city. Is that what everyone's so worried about? Either way, I think both CH and UH (as well as a bunch of other communities, SH included) should be merging with Cleveland.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=44101&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.490703,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio+44101&ll=41.463979,-81.699421&spn=0.005797,0.013937&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.463879,-81.699438&panoid=ULszywvyacjLXsebX5FShg&cbp=12,125.94,,0,4.72

12 Angry Men

Hmm, I somehow missed that (maybe in my haste to reply to the partial quote by 327). My apologies. I do find your original post much more interesting after the first paragraph.

Thin skin? I have no problem talking about it. But let's talk about it, not make thinly veiled digs at entire groups of people, then denying you even did so. I don't know what semi-long comment you are referring to since I'm late to the game on this thread, so if you attempted to talk about it and were shot down by the PC police (which surely wouldn't include myself) then my apologies.

The problem is that you were making an obvious analogy rather than simply stating "I think peaceful protest is more civilized than rioting." You also are ignorant the different circumstances surrounding the protests. You wonder why people can't argue with Republicans? You can't make veiled references and digs at others and then deny it when you're called out. That's just dishonest. Man up to your original statement and argue it if you truly believe in it.

If you are making the analogy I think you are, may I suggest that we not go down this path. Yeah, no analogy and I'm confused as to what you're talking about. Hahahaha, that's so typical. Right out of the Republican playbook. Make an implicit analogy that's pretty obvious to everyone else, but then deny it when you're called out.

Well, they just started. They should be given a fair chance to prove themselves as community-destroyers. And as illustrated in Austin, many of them have access to highly destructive instrumentalities. Don't count em out! They can close the gap quickly. I would guess most of them aren't as desperate (eg. making less than half of the poverty level, etc.) as inner city rioters. Nor are they responding to violence.