jam40jeff

Not so far flung. Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad is pursuing it. I realize you were probably thinking light rail, streetcar, etc. But there is rail service in active project development. Yell at me if this belongs in a different thread, but what exactly is the CVSR pursuing? Trains all the way to Tower City? If so, where would they come in? EDIT: This was moved from another thread. Thanks for the link, KJP. I see at the start of this thread it is mentioned that the trains would come in at Canal Rd. Is this still what is being considered or are they looking at getting the trains into the Tower City parking deck?

Not so far flung. Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad is pursuing it. I realize you were probably thinking light rail, streetcar, etc. But there is rail service in active project development. Yell at me if this belongs in a different thread, but what exactly is the CVSR pursuing? Trains all the way to Tower City? If so, where would they come in?

Makes sense, but there are plenty of other areas without cars that would benefit (by about 20 minutes) in how long it would take to get to Steelyard, whereas it would only cost the Lakeview Terrace residents a short ride downtown on the 81 then a transfer to the new Steelyard Flyer (look at that, I even have a name for the route). :) Where did the 81 run before Steelyard opened? It could revert to that route.

I don't think it's a far-flung wish. There is one big-box retail center in Cleveland. RTA is a hub-and-spoke system. Don't you think there should be a spoke from the hub to the one big-box retailer in the city? It wouldn't just benefit those who live downtown, but those who live anywhere near an RTA route that goes downtown (which is a lot of people because of said hub-and-spoke design). If the 81 was cut it would affect Ohio City and Tremont in addition to Lakeview Terrace (as well as points west of Steelyard unless the new route continued there after going to Steelyard) as well. But, I wasn't advocating cutting the 81. If routes can't be reconfigured or a route can't be found that can be cut, then so be it, it won't happen. But I think it's worth considering.

Or even anyone who has a direct route downtown.

Yes, the downtown ambassadors cover Public Square.

I agree. It takes way too long to get there. And it's not like we're asking for every neighborhood to have a straight shot to Steelyard, but RTA is a hub and spoke system, they should at least have a direct route to the only major big-box retail center in the city from the hub of the system.

The 81 definitely goes downtown. http://www.riderta.com/pdf/81.pdf

37 min by bus, 8-10 min by car.

I think the idea here is that (1) we can't make Public Square busier by unethically ridding it of panhandlers and (2) even if it was rid of panhandlers it's quite possible people wouldn't go there anyway due to the terrible land usage. Alright, problem identified, now fix it! :)

Good post, I think that gets to the point of it. Panhandlers are an annoyance, but are very rarely a threat. They elicit a disproportionate response of fear from many people for one reason or another. This is exactly why I agree with Hts121 that the best way to "deal" with the "problem" is to dilute it. When downtown is very busy, the panhandlers (like day after Thanksgiving, July 4th, etc.) are still there but the non-panhandlers outnumber them by so much they get lost in the shuffle and your chance (individually) of being asked for money goes way down. Add to that the safety in numbers feeling most people get, and downtown seems so much more safe even with the panhandlers still there.

The southeast side of Cleveland covers a very large area. But I'm talking about within a couple blocks of Shaker Square. One of the murders in the article posted happened at Drexmore and S. Moreland. That's a stone's throw away from the square. And then of course there was the incident a few months ago where 5 people were robbed in the movie theater (on the same block) while watching a movie. And, for what it's worth (since it was a comment on cleveland.com), a commenter on the article claimed to have seen a rape/robbery in progress on the same corner a few months ago.

There were people crossing awfully close to the streetcars coming the other way, and the carriage that squeezed between the two streetcars at 8:30 had to be real close to both.

Is it just me or are there more and more violent crimes happening right around Shaker Square?

...and a hidden camera streaming over the internet, of course.

Cigarettes have always smelled terrible.

Well, saying they're as annoying as panhandlers seems to be lumping them together to me. I suppose I can understand (although I don't agree) why some people would be a little afraid or weary of street performers, but I really don't understand how anyone could consider them as annoying as panhandlers. They are not aggressive about asking you for money. They are minding their own business, creating art, and if you like it you can go over and give them a donation. I don't see it being much different than walking past artwork in a window. I have never seen a street performer get up in someone's face or try to be intimidating or follow someone like some panhandlers may do at times. They're too busy performing and they're minding their own business. If you don't want to donate you just mind your own business as well. There's no forced interaction like with a panhandler.

Market St. today: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Market+Street,+San+Francisco,+CA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Market+St,+San+Francisco,+California&ll=37.790523,-122.399797&spn=0.048565,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=37.790588,-122.399716&panoid=0IeQNnCxz7p3DeDJiSQZ2g&cbp=12,45.94,,0,1.47

On the upside, you're OK. We hate smoke. My wife loves Febreeze. She would have emptied the bottle on the car and if it didn't smell better after that, taken it back. I don't think smokers are aware of how much they stink everything up because they're so used to smelling it themselves.

I can't believe there were no collisions. It's amazing how much more in shape everyone looks and it's amazing to us whippersnappers how nicely everyone dressed back then.

Here's a direct link: http://www.ocnw.org/home/historic_west_virginia/index.html

Yes, I believe I've heard that Superior cannot be cut off because it is a US route (unless the federal government reroutes it). Also, Ontario is a US route (422) up to Superior.

Regardless of the trash/noise/etc. issues, I feel Public Square is uninviting mainly because of the land usage. The space is large between the surrounding buildings, but much of it is not usable by people. Here are some numbers I calculated using an area measurement tool on Google Maps (all numbers are in square feet): Inside Outer Sidewalks Roadway Area/Total Area 201000/355000 Total Area Between Buildings (or parking lot on NW quadrant) 442038 Roadway Area 218278 Park Area (not all of it usable) NW: 25553 NE: 29801 SE: 30740 SW: 22101 Total: 108195 Sidewalk Area 115565 Outer Sidewalk Area 69760 Inner Sidewalk Area 45805 That's way too much roadway for it to be a functional park, especially given that the roadway splits the area into 4 separate parks.

I agree with everything you said except your last sentence. I really think that with a proper bus terminal, Public Square could serve both purposes well. There is enough space. The problem is that its all just one big mess right now, without clear separation of where to wait for buses, where to walk if you're passing through, and where to hang out and relax. I think it's akin to a really wide street without lane markings or sidewalks. You get people driving all over and walking all over and its just a mess, even if there's enough room for everyone to do their own thing if it were properly organized.

That's a textbook tackle in most people's book. The problem is that some of these defenders aren't trying to tackle players as much as trying to hurt them (and even risking injury themselves to do so).