Polis

I just re-discovered this forum and I have to toss out there that I love Cleveland, it's hometown, but I'm stuck in C-bus! Not that C-bus is bad but Cleveland is where my heart is. My sister, a few peers and myself are in the very beginning stages of forming a non-profit and a private enterprise to help fund the non-profit. If we can't find jobs, we'll create jobs. I'm big into more "urban living" and think the affordability of Cleveland and its surrounding neighborhoods is a major attractor. For many in my generation that is an important asset when looking for a job. I wish I could see a decade in the future to see what Cleveland will become!

That is the bus model that Cleveland is using. They stopped at COTA's building to show us. It is likely not the exact model COTA would be using. Most likely there will be no left hand doors and it might sit higher. I believe this was the low floor BRT model; while COTA would go for a standard height since low floor is unnecessary and costs more.

I wrote the project details and summary for this grant. Unfortunately I do not suspect COTA will receive much funding, but one can hope :) The implementation of the artics would be a great benefit to the overcrowded local lines. Did you know Columbus has a ban on buses over 48 ft long? COTA had to request support to change this law from a member of city council who, unfortunately, did not come through with a letter.

Thank goodness too because we had to switch back to pure diesel :(

Specifically I was talking about articulated hybrid buses. Mainly would you like to see them on the streets of Columbus? Do you think it's feasible to do so? What problems could arise? What benefits? I know the benefits as far as ridership, service quality, air quality, and maintenance savings are concerned but what about aesthetics, customer POV and the non-rider's POV? I ask because COTA is looking into purchasing articulated hybrid buses but there are many unknown factors floating around we would like to nail down.

Anyone have any opinions are implementing artic hybrids in Columbus?

You know I think businesses need to step up and help fund some cheaper forms of transportation. If they want people to spend their money in a time of shrinking spending cash then they need to make sure people don't spend so much on other goods. Suburbs and their businesses need to step up to the plate and fund cheap transportation and better zoning/building codes to encourage less spending on transportation and city services (e.g. the less curbs in a housing development the less money the city has to spend on upkeep). It really pisses me off that most citizens, local governments, and businesses sit around slackjawed and constantly complain as if they were not a major cause of the problem. (of course I am aiming this at suburbs). If Columbus wants a healtheir economy it needs better transportation options.

I was just simply stunned by Bob Weiler's comments about COTA. He seems so clueless about how the system works and about public transit in general. I think his money glasses are blinding his view of reality. His comment of the highway being the mass transit system literally made me want to leap through my computer screen, travel back in time, and hit him in the head. He railed against the street car using a mediocre argument about COTA's service and our current highway system. He apparently is oblivious to the impact that the gas prices and inflation are having on individual and household incomes. I guess he doesn't like people to have extra spending money to pump into the local economy, he'd rather have us pour money into gas and watch it trail out overseas and into other states. I work for COTA and am embarassed due to Bob Weiler's comments.

What's at Neil and Norwich? Isn't a bunch of houses? David: How intelligent are these people you wish to find? If they are too intelligent they might be socially awkward and hide in their rooms all day, so you need to find one and chase it down when it ventures outside :) I think Batelle hires pretty smart people, you can go loiter in front of their building talking to their employees. Most of the intelligent or at least interesting conversations I have with people I don't know take place in coffee shops or slower bars.

I have a similar problem as the OP but usually I am just frustrated that all the bars around campus are all the same with the exception of a select few. I like to go to Ravari room, sort of a metal'ish bar north of Campus. I meet girls here and there but I want a more laid back place to hang out, sometimes I go to Kafe Kerouac or Buckeye Donuts (which, as mentioned, is a great place to meet all sorts of people). If you are looking for the intellectual sorts you might have to check places during the day (as many of them are in the same situation and have no place to go at night but hang out with each other at houses) or check out random places like a hookah bar. Hang out in places where you would hang out :) Logically you should meet people that are like you. Also, as mentioned by atlas, do not generalize areas too much. German Village has a large variety of bars both older and younger. Try different places and do not be afraid to walk up to someone you think is interesting and start a conversation. If you want some activity to engage in conversation look for discussion groups in coffee shops and what not.

Was not sure where to post this since its policy but it is all about transportation. Thought this study was interested and since it is from Brookings might be tossed around in the political arena. The Brookings Institute recently released a study calling for transportation policy reform and a change in the way Americans view and plan for transportation. The whole study can be found on their website and is titled "A Bridge to Somewhere: Rethinking American Transportation for the 21st Century". http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2008/06_transportation_puentes.aspx While much of the presented information seems obvious to most transportation enthusiasts perhaps those that do not have as much knowledge will be swayed by this study (Congress, for example).

Well I think that the support for the Street Car from the public has been fairly quiet. I am not saying the support isn't there it's just that it does not seem organized. I know there is a street car support group (http://columbus-streetcars.com/) but I am unaware if they have called for any public "outcry". I wonder if an organized writing letter effort would have any effect?

Five days with no activity on this thread, should we start collecting donations to fund the engineering project? :D

A rough breakdown of Revenue sources from 2006: Sales Tax Rev 59.4%, Passenger Fares 16.7%, Federal Assistance 13.7%, Federal Capital Grants 4.1%, State Capital Grants 2.0%, State Assistance 1.5%, Other and Interest Income 2.5%. The 2007 breakdown has not been released yet but should be soon'ish.

You do not want to know (psst. the number is around 4 mpg). Unfortunately the COTA contract for cheap diesel is ending and the economy is slowing, shrinking the projected budget. Airport service will be improved eventually but the airport is changing the alignment of one of its major roads and that is causing some delay. I actually work for COTA as a service planner (anything I put up here about COTA is unofficial) and if anyone has questions I can try to answer. Also if you ever want service to change just call up COTA's info line and talk to one of our rep's. Recommendations actually do make it back to the correct departments and they even appear on our service change lists from time to time. (On the downlow we are trying to purchase hybrid-electric diesel articulated buses!)

I would also check the financial plan on that website, it has a more up to date map with a proposed combined route that covers more than the original red. Is the street car engineering proposal still unofficially tabled by the council? I have come to appreciate the street car a bit more over time, although I am still skeptical about the impact in Columbus, and would love the engineering study to move through. However the cost is about $2 million and no one is willing to fund this incredibly expensive study. Personally I think they are displaying the proposed funding plan completely wrong. Tossing out a lump sum for the first ten years is throwing people into an anti-street car mode. Listing the street car with its per year funding I think would be more acceptable. I beleive it would be around 14 million a year and that is with extra funds to compensate for raising prices. Also, for those avid supporters do not be put off by the time it is taking. It took Phoenix, AZ nearly 25 years to finally get their light rail off the ground this year after alot of work was done decades ago. Perseverance paid off.

Exactly so we need to stop comparing them, they serve two different purposes with a common goal of moving people and have two very different images in the mind of the public. My examples above may have been extreme but my point is that they cannot use a comparison to the bus to justify the street car as they have been. That is some good news that another feasibility study will be conducted especially with the funding of COTA. Finally some data I can hopefully rely on. Weiler's concern over the inflated ridership projects is valid but his anti-street car stance is probably strong. I don't particularly agree that the board needs to be balanced since the city needs to do SOMETHING to start downtown development rolling I just hope the feasibility study is fair. Also if COTA were to remove buses from High street stretch of the street car that would force a transfer, something that is a deathknell for bus systems. Unless COTA worked to increase the street car frequency and what not to meet the #2's high frequency peak service that won't be able to happen. I don't really think it would reduce the number of jobs since the drivers can be trained to operate a street car AND we can move the drivers to other routes COTA wants to expand so really it might save them some hiring problems IF the transfers are smooth. The fact that a street car is on a track is a boon since people can see where it goes but also if a street is shut down so is the street car, unlike a bus, there is a tradeoff made buy the fact that economic development "springs up" around street car lines makes it a better choice. There has not been many efforts to make bus wayfinding easy and there is little research on this topic. But as far as painting the streets go creating a "rainbow" that would be confusing; the truth is you would need 3-4 colors and have bubbles with the number of the route on them. Plus I was expressing that as just one option you could use road signs instead or some other way of displaying info. As soon as you leave the immediate downtown area not many lines overlap anyhow so it wouldn't really be that bad. Also all the investment that happens around streetcar lines are always backed by the cities, at least the start of the development. All the hatred towards buses is funny because no city with a street car has ever done away with their bus system and in fact relies on the bus system to move people to the street car and light rail lines. I love how buses are attacked because of it, when buses will be the feeders of any future light rail. I feel like the bus system is an unfair transit martyr when it has existed as a form of alternative transportation that has been bashed and beaten by the public for decades, and now is being bashed again as an "unacceptable" form of transportation. The street car and bus system need to coexist and work with each other to make sure they move people as effectively as possible and reduce the cost to the public the best way it can. Public transit supporters should be working to change the image of the bus and pushing politicians to to do it but instead public transit supporters whine about the deficencies. Is there a citizen's group that is sitting in on the street car development?

It is a matter of frequency of service NOT a matter of the tracks being there. What if we painted route finding lines on the pavement showing which routes go where (for buses that is), then it would be similar to the street car. Also what if the street car served the same function as the bus, there were expresses, locals, crosstowns, etc. and you wouldn't be able to tell where a street car went until it came up to you and then you had to interpret where it went from the name. Its not a matter of tracks being there it's a matter of the street car being SO expensive to build that it is built in areas where it will be able to serve high frequency. It's a matter of providing information on the frequencey and areas of service. Another point I would like to reiterate is signage and information availability. COTA has an issue with this as do many transit agencies in the US, but if we had wayfinding signs (route maps) and times for each bus at every stop there would be a different attitude. The problem is the argument about the tracks is an unfair comparison, taking a whole bus system and comparing it to two miles of track. Of COURSE people will trust it more its only 2 miles long, but if we had 100 miles of track winding its way around the city, taking over for the bus I bet there would be a different attitude towards the street car. I don't buy the whole visitor thing, I have been to big cities with buses, mainly NYC and Chicago, they are easy to use and I know where they go because of the nomenclature of the buses and easy to read route maps. I've also rode San Francisco's Trolley, I had no clue where it really went except up one street, but it was the same as the buses in NYC they go up one street. Of course this is just my experience but I just wanted to show I'm not going about this blindly. No one is going to build a street car with the initial goal of serving an area once an hour, that is why buses are so great for that purpose. However I do think the bus system needs better wayfinding amenities. Edit: How the heck did the Cincinnati street car thread grow to 129 pages? Haha it's freaking huge! Edit:Edit: Again I'm not against street cars or having one in Columbus I just think the data in this particular justification is incorrect and have a feeling that the economic development claim is bloated, but I have no evidence of this. I'm a stickler for proper use of data and argument formulation and it bothers me that this is used over and over again and could be deceiving to the public.

Nice article Noozer. Thanks for posting.

"Streetcars offer a user-friendly system because the path they take is visible. That is a feature buses can never match." Wow this statement is so utterly wrong and biased. First off visitors will NOT know where the street car goes once it goes out of line of sight, secondly imagine if we had street cars serving all the areas that buses do, is it user-friendly then? Not by a long shot, there would be street cars everywhere. The statement should be that the street car will be so small in service area compared to the bus system that people will trust it more. However, even if you can see the tracks without proper SIGNAGE and information distribution the street car will be EXACTLY like the bus as far as knowing where it goes. The problem with the buses is lack of easy access to line information and the stigma attached to buses as dirty poor people movers. Also if you can't figure out that the #2 North High Street Bus goes up High Street then you have bigger problems than figuring out bus routes. What if we take the buses off high street and all the "unsavory" folk take the street car? Not that I'm 100% against the street car I just think the logic backing it up over alternatives is crap.

Exactly, public support from the citizenry and the political bodies is just not present, in the open. Sure there is support on these forums and the levy did pass but there is no public discussion, only behind the doors discussions. If this existed COTA would be forced to kick into high gear. UrbanSurfin smart cards are frequently discussed within COTA; however they are never brought into discussion at the appropriate times, that and COTA is way understaffed at the moment. (at least the planning and scheduling department). Smart cards would be a great asset but there is just no one to take over this initiative, yet that is ;). Just to explain something when a route is changed it can (usually) only happen when a service change happens; January, May, Sept. The amount of time and effort it takes to change a route time is tremendous. The schedules have to be just so, so the drivers can have the mandatory amount of downtime and rest stops, etc. On top of that the buses have to be at a end of line rest area to transfer shifts. The Trapeze database needs to be altered, all the signs need to be altered, and COTA needs to make sure the buses can legally go into certain private areas at the new times (ie Graceland for the #2). Feeder routes, ala circulators, cost and arm and a leg to run and keep running. For those to be successful their ridership has to be phenominal or have another source assist in funding. Plus feeder routes would force a transfer, the death knell of public transit. Of course the feeders could be "timed" to meet up with the main route, but if one is running late then wait times will happen anyways. If COTA had a BRT then that might work but as of now the standards for stop location is to have a stop every 1/4 of a mile and closer downtown, if possible. COTA assumes that people will walk up to 1/4 of a mile to a bus stop. Kingfish the issue with the signage and what not is an important one; however the planning department has been in charge of that for a long time now. Marketing has just expanded and should be more involved. COTA has suffered almost a decade with a reduced marketing department (at least as far as I can tell). The current thoughts are not a full blown marketing campaign, but rather campaigns that revolve around improved route service primarily on the expresses. The efforts so far have been mediocre at best, the organization that COTA uses for advertising is pathetic and comes up with boring ideas. Hopefully the new hires in the marketing department will be more progressive. What are some ideas for creating this public interest? I know Mayor Coleman wants to beef up public transit, I'm not sure how though no news of discussion between COTA and the city has reached my ears so far. Any ideas?

COTA has been trapped in a tight fiscal situation for the past 10 years. This is the first year in a LONG time (at least for a transit agency) that there has been money for growth. Truthfully COTA does a decent job of serving what is it mandated to serve by the federal and state government (low income, elderly, hopsitals). The high frequency routes are successful (1,2,10) and the rest are sub-par. Changes have already been made to some express routes, but no one knows about them because of lack of marketing. The 67/57 now run two trips in the AM and PM and serve a new park and ride, that's 4 chances to hop on a bus and head downtown in the morning. Again no one knows about it because there is no marketing. The route structure of COTA is the typical radial system focused on downtown, it's old and very traditional. The agency does not hint towards changing the overall structure but rather adding service to areas of employment outside of downtown (Dublin, for example). The route schedules have more trips during peak hours and less during off peak, just like most other transit systems. It can be confusing at times, especially since routes like the #2 and #1 southbounds have 2 different locations for each route, so you may end up switching from a #2 to a different #2. Same goes for northbound #2, one ends in graceland, one ends in colonial hills, one in crossroads :O. As far as snow goes more buses are put on routes when it snows, thus increasing service so people aren't stuck in the snow. That type of service cannot function normally because of budget issues, UNION issues (big hinderance at times), and lack of buses at the moment. There is no miracle cure for fixing a transit agency and persistant misunderstandings about how public transit functions and it's benefits/drawbacks cripple the chances of it ever changing. It will take a while for COTA to recouperate from the past 10 years of shrinking service. I know that there are transit enthusiasts in Columbus that are just begging to be heard, but there is no real public forum to do so. Would anyone be interested in creating a meetup group to discuss transit in Columbus? Sort of a citizen's group. meetup.com offers a platform to schedule meetings and what not. Edit: Almost forgot, the mentioned that if COTA is against the trolley they should serve the area with the same frequency as the proposed trolley. Well, guess what, it does; at least on High St. The #2 during peak times has a 7 min headway at all stops south of Graceland to downtown. The problem is the weekend service is terrible on the #2 and the trolley would, assumingly, serve the weekends with higher frequency.

Why? WHY are lawyers sitting on a transportation committee, why are they even appointed into transportation positions!? What is with this crappy privatization of roads. Congestion pricing I can see being useful, to an extent, but privatizing roads!? When in the history of mankind have roads been successful when they were privatized. Look at most of the housing developments out there. They start with private roads and within a few years the roads are flipped to the city because they are EXPENSIVE to upkeep. Aren't current roads about 90% subsidized? If public transit is privatized then that ship will sink. It is well known that most public transit systems, in order to be profitable, would have to cut service to those who need it the most. If COTA did that we would have 3 locals, 1,2,10, and a handful of expensive expresses.

I can only assume her comment on nostalgia is meant to be negative. If so how dare she bash some of the key tools of downtown revitalization. Just because all she has seen was the monstrosity of uncontrolled suburban sprawl that ignored "good planning" does not mean using tried and true tools is a poor idea. It really disgusts me when people argue against efforts to revitalize downtown (not when they argue about which alternative to use mind you). On the topic of rail and streetcars: If Columbus really wants to push towards better transit I believe that COTA needs to merge with the city or be directly connected to the city. There are talks of moving the administration, at least planning, scheduling, and the like downtown. I really support this initiative but there is little talk about the conceptual future of transit in Columbus within the ranks of COTA. I wonder if the city would be interested in supporting a sort of citizens for public transit organization. Would anyone be interested in joining it if it did exist? Sort of a public support group that could work with the city, COTA, the public, and local businesses to promote public transit development and what not.

Running during snow times slows COTA's service alot, probably up to 50%. Also making sure two routes hit the same area at staggered 10 min times might indeed cost money in the form of adding another bus to the 16# since it is sheduled at 25 minute intervals and the #7 at 20; also there might be an issue with layover downtown and deadhead time. It's not as simple as adjusting the schedules. If you want this change to take place you need to call up customer service to tell them, they will send it to planning or scheduling. Snow delays buses just like it delays cars, you cannot expect a bus to be on time when there is snow on the road, just like you don't drive like you normally do when there is snow on the road. When you ride the bus on a busy street during rush hour (which, by the way, South high street is not nearly the same as north that is why the #2 doesn't serve much of it), you have to expect delays it is unreasonable not to. When you ride public transportation in the US you have to expect to sacrifice time. It's how it is currently. If this was a normal day during rush hour, with no snow, and the bus was really late you should report it. The driver management is fairly quick at fixing driver problems like that. As far as being embarassed, the authority actually functions fairly well for its necessary coverage and tight budget. Our society should be embarassed we don't push for funding more vigorously, but there are few well known avenues to do so. As noozer said the level of funding for transit and rail is unfortunate. EDIT: I would also like to note that many public transit employees do not feel motivated to serve society the best they can; COTA, for example, in my opinion, is ran fairly poorly. The internal barriers cause massive issues with providing better service, it's rediculous. Employees do not want ot put the effort to overcome barriers, there is no incentive. Simply complaining about COTA will do nothing, you have to tell COTA. This wasn't meant to be aggressive toward Brewmaster, so I hope it did not come out that way; it's just that the way transit works (operations and schedule planning wise) is unknown to many people.