PigBoy

Wow, that's a big project. I was at Ohio Northern just once, five or six years ago, and I probably saw the dorms but have no memory of what they are like.

I don't know a whole lot about annexation laws, but I imagine it's got to be pretty much impossible to annex an incorporated city without the city somehow dissolving itself first.

That is a projection, not a destiny. I don't think we should operate on the assumption that it will come true, or else it will come true. You can get some idea of where "growth" is growth and where it is just shifting of people by looking at Census migration statistics, which record people's residence five years prior to the census. For instance, of the 109,000 people in the sprawling hell of Delaware County in 2000, 20,000 of them lived in Franklin County in 1995. That accounts for nearly half of the county's population increase from 1990, if I'm not oversimplifying the calculation.

I don't have the real answer to this question, but a Dispatch feature in 2003 had a chart showing annexation through the decades, and it showed six square miles gained in the 2000s to that point. Whenever the last annexation was, it can't have been too long ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if land has been annexed since that article was published. As far as stagnancy goes, the Dayton metro is pretty stagnant, too. The official MSA will show a small loss in population, but if you include northern Warren and Butler Counties it evens out, or possibly posts a small gain. In any case, there is close to zero population change, but more and more land is becoming sprawl. Metro Columbus obviously has the most growth, but it really is a lot of sprawl, too. I think Franklin County has a net out-migration; it's just not as bad as the other urban counties. As far as I know, birth rates are the only thing causing population growth in Franklin County. I'm sure the rate of sprawl in the Columbus area outpaces population growth.

This seems as good a place as any to ask... Is there an estimated peak population for Cleveland that occurred either before or after the 1950 Census?

When he lent his voice to the Simpsons once, I believe he said "I'm Rupert Murdoch, the billionaire tyrant!" He's a (some would say evil) media mogul, his company owning Fox among many other media outlets.

Wow, you saw it from 35 miles away? Must be even bigger than I realized!

I think cameras like that are a good idea, assuming they are successful.

Quit trying to derail the debate! :-D

The bigger four-story building at the end of the main entrance is interesting. I can't think of anything like that at Easton; there's a large building, but it's the indoor mall part and as I recall it doesn't have windows that make it look like a normal building (although it does have that train station design).

From looking at census reports, it seems that the race categories are white, black, native American, Asian, native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, or "some other race." A person can also choose multiple races. Hispanic or Latino is a different question not related to race. Arab, as I said before, only exists as an "ancestry," basically ethnicity, I guess. I think ancestry numbers are derived from sample data, so only people who get the long form will report that at all. I don't think that many bad things would come from this kind of census information. I suppose in theory such census information could be used to profile or target neighborhoods or towns, but I'd think the authorities would already have a sense of where Arabs are and wouldn't need census numbers to undertake that level of profiling. Individual responses, as far as I know, are not available to anyone at all (including government agencies, besides the Census Bureau of course) for 70 years after the census is taken. At the moment I'm not paranoid enough to suspect that those records wouldn't be safe. The only bad thing I see that coming from such information would be possibly adding a bit more fuel to whatever bad things are already happening.

C-Dawg, I don't think you should assume a Census miscount of Arabs because many of them are counted as "white." "Arab" is reported as ancestry, having nothing to do with race--there is no reason one can't be both Arab and white in Censusland. Certainly there are probably reasons why the Census count isn't accurate, but I don't think that's one of them. Anyway, I was digging through Census numbers, and for what it's worth, the reported Arab ancestries in Lucas County go like this: Arab(Total): 5,307 Egyptian: 185 Iraqi: 121 Jordanian: 203 Lebanese: 3,018 Moroccan: 24 Palestinian: 361 Syrian: 669 Arab/Arabic: 477 Other Arab: 249 I'll allow that the true number is higher for various reasons. One thing I can point to is that 20% of the population has no reported ancestry. And I'm sure there are other reasons I don't know about. But looking at these numbers, it seems like Zogby is assuming an insanely huge undercount in that site you guys are discussing, and that's a little hard to swallow. (The Census count of Arabs in Ohio is something like 54,000.) By the way, to fuel the Toledo vs. Cleveland thing, the Census says Arabs are 1.1% of the population in Cuyahoga County compared to 1.2% in Lucas County. The question, then, would be whether that count is less accurate in one county than in the other. Otherwise they're pretty much equal.

^ For some reason I know where Cincinnati Street is in Dayton, but I'm going to have to look up Dayton Street. Nice pictures, inkaelin; thanks for giving us this little tour!

Eleven thumbs up!

My sister spent the past two years at Arizona State doing her master's degree... my mom keeps saying that my parents should have bought a house for her out there so they could have sold it this year for a lovely profit.

Really great photos! Best fountain shots ever.

No surprise there. Surely nearly all of Ohio is experiencing net out-of-region migration. In fact, I can't think of a good canidate for a county that would have a net in-migration that is anything more than piddling.

Van Wert's courthouse rulz!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Very nice. This is a city with which I must get better acquainted while in Wisconsin.

The incontrovertible truth is this: Every city in the universe sucks but Dayton. ----- On a more serious note... Don't banish me from Dayton for saying this, ColDayMan, but I'd agree with C-Dawg that Dayton and Toledo are basically in the same category. I don't consider them the same size in any manner, but I don't think Dayton's "advantage" in that department quite lifts it to another level. But that's just an opinion without impact of any kind. We here are geeks who are relatively well aware of the details of differences between the cities. I don't know about anyone else, but in the course of interactions with other people I wouldn't paint one city as being insignificant with respect to the other; rather, I'd try to use what I may know to explain the facts and let people see the cities how they will. That is, I don't want to campaign to sway the American public, whose at-large opinion might actually have consequence, to view things my way. Although if they do come to see it differently from me, they're obviously morons.

Re: gentrification... I would be pretty happy to see significant gentrification in OTR, despite the unfortunate fact that real poverty issues would not be solved. The location and character of this neighborhood in particular make it too important to let it decline beyond repair. Having a crappy neighborhood right next to downtown seems to be really hurtful to Cincinnati's repuation among locals, who loudy proclaim what an awful state the city is in and how it's not safe to be downtown, etc. That kind of talk surely makes Cincinnati a less attractive place for outsiders (residents or businesses) to move to. OTR holds too much potential to not be gentrified. For the record, I wouldn't champion gentrification as the solution to everything everywhere; I just think in this particular case it would be good, at least for part of the problem. (By the way, sorry if I'm only repeating the same things someone else has said... I may have missed some things in the lengthy discussions here.)

Sorry... I'll try not to incite any riots. :evil:

Heh... the best Toldeo/Dayton fight here can't top a good Dayton vs. Grand Rapids fight!

Oh no, not this again! Maybe it's time for a Toledo vs. Dayton thread-to-end-all-threads. :box: Toledo kicks puppies and eats babies. (I wish I had something germane to the university discussion and were not just wasting bandwidth, I really do. Sorry.)

It's how much data transfer occurs with your files. If, for example, you post a 100 KB photo somewhere and ten people view it (i.e. download it), that's 1 MB of bandwidth used.