jonmoxon

Yes, but C-Dawg was backing up his statements. I've read somewhere Toledo is the busiest port (tonnage-wise) in Ohio. In terms of rail & truck traffic, I can't speak to that but he offered links to support his claims. Hardly fantasy material, methinks.

^D.C.'s public transit (Metrorail) is a pleasure to use.

Being a carpenter, I'm still trying to figure out a way to "telecommute" to the jobsite. :?

^I've gotten the sense that Stark's project is ready to roll with/without them. :-D

edsiou, like MTS said, I don't believe you fully understand the purpose and function that a medical mart/convention center will have here. Yes, the medical mart corporation may only directly employ 10-ish people once it's built; and the people running the new convention center will probably transfer from the existing CC. That would equal (using your logic) a net increase of the 10-ish jobs created by MM. Now, have you thought about the following: *All the construction jobs created to build this monster? The millions in payroll that these people (who live in the community) will then circulate through the local economy. Let's continue... *Applying your logic to other large downtown projects, let's use Jacobs Field and Quicken Loans Arena as an example. Publicly-funded by the county, touted as a "silver-bullet"-type economic stimulant, this project was at least voted upon by the people. Using your logic, this project has been an obvious disappointment because the Tribe and Cavs simply relocated their operations from Muny Stadium and Richfield, no? Not counting all the construction work that took place, (my dad and uncle both ran work there for the duration of the job) keeping the Tribe in Cleveland, bringing the Cavs back downtown, revitalizing the entire Prospect-Gateway neighborhood, boosting our civic pride during each team's title run(s), and spurring other development/investment in that neighborhood, you would have to conclude that this project hasn't lived up to the hype because these buildings really didn't "create" any new jobs. *Let's ask ourselves this: Our beloved, much-praised, growing E.4th st neighborhood is one of the shining, most happening spots in all of NE Ohio, much less downtown. If Gateway hadn't been built, would this development have occurred? Absolutely not. *A new MM/CC project would be a growth catalyst in exactly the same way. If this is built, a new hotel attached to the CC is likely to follow (more jobs); the other hotels will see increased business and/or expand themselves (more jobs and bed tax revenue). Restaurants will see more business and new ones will open (more jobs); the retail scene will definitely improve, especially within Tower City Center (more jobs). Bars, clubs, concert places, comedy joints, the museums...,etc. will all benefit too. This is just the hospitality sector. And all this new investment and growth just makes the downtown area a more attractive place to live. :clap: *The new MM will be populated with rep's from countless medical-related companies from all over the nation/world. Who's to say that some of these firms don't eventually decide to set up an office or a manufacturing base here because of their presence in the MM? Our critical mass of hospitals and medical-research facilities here are second to none. What about this? *The fact that Medical Mart (the company) will be managing the facility is encouraging. They produce their own trade shows and could directly steer all/a lot of that business into our new facility. The more shows and business we get, I'm sure the better off they'll do. Also, it seems that our new CC will be targeting a specific area of trade shows/conventions: the medical field. I'm not going to get redundant about how Cleveland fits that niche. Make any sense? I don't believe that the MM people would be interested in coming here if they didn't think this could be successful. Have you thought about any of this? This project isn't as simple as you're attempting to make it. If we screw this up, some other city will happily jump all over this, but at least we'll have that extra quarter in our pocket on that next $100 purchase. :roll:

Great pics Mayday. I was in Tremont on Sunday and it was great. The weather was perfect and the street was filled. It seems to get bigger (more vendors and people) every year. Definitely one of my favorite Cleveland events of the year.

^^The man is proud of his town, dude. We all do it on here regarding Cleveland, or whatever side or section of town we come from. I think any of us hailing from a rust-belt "seen better days" town does this. Nothing wrong there. Keep it up, C-dawg. :clap: I will be calling Toledo home in the near future.

I will not completely disagree with any of the above reasons; however, I will say that a desperate nation is a dangerous one, i.e., our extreme dependence on foreign oil. Also remember, the Saudi government is not popularly elected; it is widely resented by a sizable amount of its people. When civil unrest or a potential government overthrow presents itself in the near future, the U.S. will not stand idly by. **We are not setting up permanent military bases in Iraq because we don't have anywhere else to put our boys. :roll: I'm certainly not endorsing this course of action. I'm just saying that this is a plausible scenario, as oil prices skyrocket and/or supply shortages ensue. We (the U.S. govt & military) will not stand by and twiddle our thumbs. If you believe that this couldn't possibly happen, then you haven't been paying attention.

Call me crazy, but I can see U.S. troops in Saudi oil fields w/in the next couple years as this situation continues to escalate; I wouldn't be shocked at anything that happens over there.

^Lava Lounge is definitely the more "romantic" spot, still very hip and a laid-back vibe. This is my #1 choice to end a tremont crawl, especially if I'm trying to impress a lady. :wink:Southside is cool, tends to be a little on the crowded side; a great patio and a cool space. Both have late-night eats, too. I would hit Southside, then Lava Lounge.

^Yes, that is kind of a bummer for me. Musicwise, I usually catch about a dozen shows a year between the Grog Shop and the Beachland, and I haven't found or noticed a comparable place in Toledo. I like the fact that the Sports Arena is moving downtown by the ballpark, but it doesn't address the lack of a club that hosts touring national/regional indie rock/altcountry/rockabilly acts that I love so much. Unless there is such a place and I've missed finding it? Sportswise, Cleveland is close enough to make it back for a game on the weekend, and Detroit is only an hour away. Not so bad in this department. C-Dawg, I'm going to make it a point to check that neighborhood out next time I'm up there. I love the ethnic neighborhoods and eateries. I also love Mexican food. Really good stuff, guys. Keep it comin. :clap:

^ Speaking for someone who had never been to Toledo before my lady moved there, I've come to most of the same conclusion(s) you have; having grown up in the country (ashtabula county) and lived in the city (jcu, cleve hts, tremont, lakewood) I need to be in the city, and I could NEVER live in a suburb. If my lady chooses to stay in Toledo after her residency, we've got our eye on some old homes in the OWE (we both love that nabe) and I've got my eye on a few old commercial bldgs in the warehouse district that I could play around with (I'm a carpenter). I would love nothing more than a cool urban loft down there that I could put together. Some of my thoughts from my time up there: *One word for Ann Arbor: awesome. I love big college towns. *M' lady and I have made it a point to explore the restaurants and bars of downtown Toledo and it's environs(I will not patronize places in the burbs or chains) and I will say this about "the docks" complex: It should've been built on the other side of the river!! I can't count the # of empty storefronts in that block of beautiful fronts on the e. side of summit st. downtown where this development should've gone. :? *El Camino Real on Sylvania is the greatest mexican restaurant I've ever been to. We love that place! *The 5 points nabe is just ok to me. Nothing real bad, nothing real good. Not much you can walk to. Very busy roads. *We went to Detroit for a concert at the Magic Stick that ended up being postponed, but we had already booked the hotel room so we headed up anyway planning to just explore and bar-hop downtown. I love urban architecture and rust-belt topography so the ride into Detroit on 75 was something I could appreciate. I loved the view of the Rouge-area industrial complex. We got off early so we could drive thru Corktown and old Tiger Stadium (that place is still standing!?!) We had dinner/drinks at Detroit Brewing Co. and just wandered around downtown on foot and the people-mover. It was cool, but it really needs to run into the burbs (maybe up woodward?) I was really surprised at the amount of vacant land on the immediate periphery of downtown(especially along Woodward). A few new condo's/townhouses, but an immense amount of prime developable land exists very close to the city core. Greektown(the nabe; I'm not a gambler)was cool. We make it a habit to take a weekend and head to other cities in the region to explore/see concerts (Buffalo, Pittsburgh [love that town too], Louisville,etc) and I can say I was impressed enough with Detroit to want to head back there for a weekend in the summer. All in all, as a native Clevelander, I've been impressed with what Toledo/SE Michigan has to offer, and I have no problem relocating there. :-)

She'll be starting her second year of residency next month at St. V's in podiatry. When I get up to see her we like to head to Ann Arbor, what a cool town. We went to Detroit last mo. and I was pleasantly surprised (hadn't been there in 10 yrs).

Wow. Just wow. The continuing short-sightedness of our federal government regarding peak oil and our future energy supply leaves me more pessimistic every day. Did anyone else notice oil hit over $69/barrel yesterday? And the dog and pony show we call DC rolls on.....

^ I was thinking the same thing. Anyone care to clarify this please?

Ha! I just posted the same thing over on the other thread for this project.

X, you summed up my position perfectly. The design of this building is nothing worth saving. I also don't subscribe to the belief that "This building is historic/irreplaceable just because 'insert celebrity architect here' designed it". All the other issues you brought up make this building worth saving, not who designed it. I would also add that, in a city where the skyscrapers aren't exactly rising on every block, we shouldn't be racing to tear down our taller office buildings to replace them with 15-story glass midrises. MTS, what I meant is that the county is stuck at that site. They are not moving to Tower City, the burbs, or anywhere else like they've vaguely threatened. They will, however, probably get their way when it comes to demoing the Breuer tower and building a new building. And Joe Cimperman's name is mentioned several times in G Ferris' blog about proposing a motion to demo and calling the commisioners "our partners" and all that crap. Articles like the one in the NY Times only help the preservation cause because it raises awareness of this issue beyond our area and makes it that much more difficult for Hagan & Dimora to defend their position and with-hold information. The more publicity on this, the better.

^^The design for that bldg looks like the little brother to the Avenue District's signature high-rise. I like it.

If they're going forward on this tax increase, they'd better have a deal with Medical mart in their backpocket because I believe that's the only way the public swallows this. It's the only reason I support doing it now.

Thanks! I will check those out.

Why do we need an OSU-Cleveland? Last time I checked, we already had a fairly large, under-utilized state university with "Cleveland" in it's name. Would it be here simply to appease Buckeye fanatics and give Cleveland a formal link to OSU? I'm not sure I see a need for another state U. in Cleveland. However, if you're looking to spice up the college scene here, I think it's time for CSU to get a football team going. How does the only state school (D1, too) in a football-mad town like Cleveland not have a football team?? It would also be another user for that waste of money and space on the lakefront.

I understand your aggravation, Punch, but if the county gives up on this site and decides to move to say, Tower City, what happens with this? They spent something like $22 mil to purchase this property. They would have to spend more to build elsewhere. I don't think they would get half of what they paid if they tried to sell it. (which is a huge part of this problem) In my opinion, the bail-out they gave to Jacobs has married them to this site, Breuer tower or not. There's just no way the taxpayers of this county would allow them to just bail on this site and throw more millions away just for what essentially is property acquisition. The county is stuck there, and my $1 says they eventually get their way. After all, Jackson, Sweeney, Cimperman, et al, support the county's position, too. It would be a huge upset if that tower is saved from demo. The public outcry has got to get bigger and more regional/national for that to happen.

How 'bout a Tribe game? We could get "The Indians welcome UrbanOhio to the Jake" on the scoreboard. Any takers? I'm down with anything involving a cool cleveland hood and some frosty delicious beverages. :drunk:

That place looks too nice for construction workers. Construction workers get dirty. I know, I do it. :-D Personally, I would sh*t if I found out my company was putting me up at a place like that. Wow.

^I figured the transit use #'s for the bigger cities (NYC,etc) would be significantly higher!