Eigth and State

^----"The I-74 line was purely political..." My honest opinion is that west siders saw through the politics and voted against the Metro Moves. It's not that they are against transit.

Good point. If Cincinnati had annexed most of the developed parts of Hamilton County such as Norwood, Reading, Sharonville, etc., those projections would be pretty close.

^---- The Red and Blue Lines above make an interesting strategy comparison. The Blue Line would be faster, cheaper to build, and cheaper to operate because it is mostly on private right of way. The Red Line offers more traffic development.

I have numbers from a plan that was published a few years after the Kesler plan. According to the "Official Plan of the City of Cincinnati, 1925," the population and projections were: City of Cincinnati 1925 400,000; 2010 650,000 Hamilton County 1925 500,000; 2010 750,000 Campbell, Kenton, and Hamilton Counties 1925 650,000; 2010 900,000 The Hamilton County projections turned out to be pretty close. Instead of increasing from 400,000 to 650,000, the City of Cincinnati DECLINED from 400,000 to about 300,000. Obviously, they assumed a higher density in the city and did not anticipate the sprawling suburbs.

A buddy of mine just built a new house in a new subdivision. I asked him why he chose to live there and it was all about the schools. In fact, he specifically excluded a certain SUBURBAN school district in favor of an EXURBAN one. The city schools were not even in the question. He also wanted a new house rather than an existing one, and a big yard. So, I would agree that schools are a major factor. Compare the price of a private school and commuting, and for most people the additional commuting cost is offset by the cost savings in a suburban public school.

^----- Since WWII, most Ohio cities have lost density in the core as the suburbs were developed. Most California cities GAINED density in the core as the suburbs were developed. The difference is immigration.

A study from a few years ago projected that Saudi Arabia would be the last country to peak in 2011. The same study projected the world to peak in 2008. When you think about it, Saudi Arabia has only one main natural resource: petroleum. If Saudi Arabia had petroleum as well as farmland, like Ohio, chances are that they would have consumed most of their oil themselves. They HAD to trade it for food and other things.

"Were cities considering streetcar proposals during the 70's gas shortage era?" Cincinnati considered exclusive guideway transit in the 1970's. I have a really neat study on it, which incidently, I salvaged out of a garbage can. They recommended, among other things, using the C&O railraod right of way to connect downtown to the West Side - at a time when the C&O was still operating! They also recomended using the subway. There were three branches of light rail proposed: downtown to Covington, downtown to Cheviot, and downtown to Norwood. The Norwood line would have used the subway to Hopple Street, then run in the street up MLK Drive past UC, picking up the old CL&N right of way to Norwood. There were some pretty extensive opinion surveys as to whether people preferred above ground, at grade, or below grade vehicles, a traditional look or a futuristic look, and things like that. The study also included a healthy bus component. Alas, it was never followed, and my copy was found in a garbage can! Not only has the freight traffic on the C&O been abandoned, but the entire right-of-way has been abandoned! (There are some remnants left.) The U.C. area has been redeveloped beyond anyone's dreams in 1976, and Over-the-Rhine had nearly emptied out before the recent renewed interest. So, do you wonder why people are cynical about Cincinnati not being able to get things done? The study was labeled "Exclusive Guideway Transit, Element of the Long Range OKI Transportation Plan", 1976. It is 276 pages long. It has some maps, but many, many charts of projected ridership, cost estimates, and so on. Again, I salvaged my copy from a garbage can!

^----"A regional planning agency says central Ohio's population is expected to grow by 500,000 by 2030." Huh? The Census projects a DECLINE in all of Ohio by 2030. Is Central Ohio attracting people from the rest of the state?

During the 1960's, the number of cars on the road doubled in ten years. No amount of oil in the ground can keep up with exponential growth, no matter how much we drill.

^---- "It had an outfield hill, which would no longer be acceptable." But it would be the only outfield hill in the major leagues. How cool would that be?

Is there any data on demographics? Were these apartments occupied primarily by singles, families, elderly, or any other group? Thanks again for the tour.

For starters, here's a photo from downtown looking toward Mt. Adams. The incline is clearly visible. There is no empty space between downtown and Mt. Adams. Broadway Commons is the valley to the left.

^---- Be careful what you wish for!

There was a rail yard and a lot of railroad-related stuff, including a coal unloading facility. Also, a little farther north, where the I-71 / Reading Road interchange is, was Deercreek Commons, with baseball fields where blacks played when baseball was segregated. Farther south, the urban areas of downtown and Mt. Adams were basicly continuous before I-71 was built. For some great photos of the Broadway Commons area, check out the book "Narrow Gauge in Ohio" by John Hauck.

And I forgot to say, thanks for the photos.

I really like photo #1. So, Pompei was buried in 79 AD. Everything in that photo must be at least that old, and maybe older. I see a building face, a sidewalk, a curb, and a street. This is old technology, and it has barely changed. The proportions are similar to a street in most traditional towns in Ohio. The sidewalk is graded to drain water away from the building face toward the gutter, and the street pavement is crowned to also drain water toward the gutter. The curb keeps wheeled vehicles from encroaching onto the sidewalk. The "speedbumps," or stepping stones, do two things. One, they force wheeled vehicles to slow down. Horses would pass between the stones, and the carriage wheels would also pass between the stones. The stepping stones function as a sort of bridge to carry pedestrians from one sidewalk to another without stepping in horse manure. Early American cities, especially east coast cities but including Cincinnati, actually had stepping stones like this. Automobiles don't have the ground clearance nor the agility to pass between the stones; however, they remain in the form of painted lines on the pavement. Sometimes there are crosswalks of brick pavers instead of asphalt. The overall proportions match natural and human dimensions. The street is wide enough for two horse carriages to pass, and the sidewalk is wide enough for two humans to pass. Pompei is interesting for the plaster figures and the frescos, but in my opinion, the streets are what make it fantastic. Streets are the heart and soul of cities.

I know you're kidding, but unlike the streetcar, I-75 has a source of funding. I would also like to see a comparison on the Tacoma line.

Soil conditions in Ohio are generally not bad for skyscrapers. New York City has very good soil conditions, however: solid rock. How about some photos of the less well known skyscraper areas in Ohio? No need for definitions. Just the photos, please.

Does the Tacoma line, or any other streetcar line for that matter, make money? Do fares cover operating costs, or even operating costs plus capital costs?

Why all the hate?

Bravo.

^--- I'm serious about the SUV comment. Cars are a sort of fashion statement, just like clothes. As Rob said in a previous post, there are people that equate riding the bus with eating at the mission.

I just checked my "Wagner and Wright" series of books on the Cincinnati Streetcars for the reason that Cincinnati switched to trolley buses, or trackless trolleys. Wagner and Wright did not give a specific reason. However, I infer the following: The Cincinnati Streetcar system from the beginning was not planned rationally, but grew organically over time, and was always changing. In order to change a route, all of the infrastructure including the wires and rails had to be changed. Switching to rubber-tired vehicles allowed less expensive route changes. Ridership was declining at the time, and long-term prospects were not good, so it probably did not seem prudent to invest in streetcar rails. There were still a lot of brick and stone streets at that time, and the City of Cincinnati and other cites such as Lockland were paving their streets with asphalt, and wanted the streetcar rails removed. It seems that the goal was to replace the entire streetcar system with motorcoaches; however, they didn't have the infrastructure for motorcoaches in terms of maintenance facilities, fueling stations, and so on. It was easy to convert to trackless trolleys by simply purchasing new vehicles. Some routes were being converted to motor coaches while others were converted to trackless trolleys, depending on factors such as which maintenance facilities they operated out of. Even so, there were some of difficulties converting to trackless trolleys. Some lines ran partly on private rights-of-way, which had to be paved.

^---- That they have more spending power than you and are willing to show it off.