Eigth and State

Allright, LIG's comment on how we used to build subways made we wonder how we got here. Here are some old plans and things from my library, which only contains a fraction of what is out there. Looks like after the historic streetcars and interurbans disappeared, talk of rail was revived in the 1970's, with bigger and bigger plans up through about 1997. After 1997, plans for rail were toned down, finally resulting in the current streetcar plan. Three of these were purchased for good money, one was given to me by a generous employee of Queen City Metro, and the rest were picked out of garbage cans, which kind of gives a hint of how much value was placed on them. All of them are interesting. The 1907 Kessler Plan for Parks and Parkways, as reprinted in American Heritage. This plan advocated, among other things, separation of traffic, and resulted in construction of Victory Parkway, Columbia Parkway, and Central Parkway, which are still mostly free of commercial trucks - and streetcars! The Official Plan of Cincinnati, 1925. Overcxrowding of streets was a big theme of this work. They wanted to widen Fifth Street! The 1948 Metropolitan Master Plan of Cincinnati and Hamilton County was the forerunner of the interstates. It says that buses should remain "temporarily" until everyone could afford a car. The Exclusive Guideway Transit Element of 1976 is my favorite. It advocated a transit line from Downtown to Norwood through U.C. via ML, and others to Cheviot and Covington. This volume has lots of good public opinion survey. The Transportation 2000 plan of 1978 was just a plan on how to make a comprehensive plan for transportation and other things. I couldn't find anything useful in it, other than the fact that OKI was getting into transporation in a big way at that time. Teh Coordinated City Plan, Volume I and II, from 1988 had a full range of planning activities including housing, recreation, etc. The top priortity was industrial development. There is one page about buses, and one paragraph about bicycles. This work starts with an ominous population trend line, showing a decrease from 503,998 in 1955 to 423,671 in 1976. OKI Regional Transportation Plan from 1981 talked about the full range of modes from buses to bicycles, and listed the same two rail lines to Norwood via MLK, and Chviot, but no Covington, from the Exclusive Guidway Plan. Then, it recommended lots of highway improvements in the far suburbs. A Transit Develolpment Strategy for Hamilton County, 1981 to 1985 by SORTA was all about Queen City Metro buses and didn't include any rail at all. The I-71 Cooridor Transportation Study Busway Alternative of 1988 advocated a special highway for buses only parallel to I-71, including what appears to be a deep tunnel under Mt. Auburn. This plan had a detailed alignment based on the new CAGIS. Looking Ahead: 2020 Metropolitican Transportation Plan, OKI, 1997, update of a 1993 plan which I don't have, talked about all the modes: automobile, motor bus, airline, bicycle, trains (including the 3C line!) Recommended rail transit included radial lines from downtown to Fort Wright, Alexandria, Cheviot, Hamilton, Mason, and Middletown, all for $2.9 Billion in 1997. (Wow!) The Kingsport Corridor study Technical Proposal of 1994 was not actually a study, but a proposal by a consultant, Burgess & Niple, advertising their ability to perform such a study. This proposal is 3 inches thick, printed. "Sometimes I think that we exist to keep consultants in business." - Bruce Koehler, OKI. Metro Moves Regional Transit Plan, 2002, advocated an agressive bus expansion and regional rail plan, but not as aggressive as the 1997 plan. This is the first place I know of where the proposed Cincinnati Streetcar in its current form, or nearly so, was mapped. So, it's been on the drawing board for 10 years now. Not everyone on this board agrees with me, but you can't say that I don't contribute anything useful. :wink:

I have suggested some alternate routes on this board already and took a lot of flak for them. And no, I am not picking West Chester to Mason. No route is perfect, but some are more affordable than others.

It's not just because policy makers are "dumbing down" the rail system; it's also because there is just so much more stuff in the way these days. Heavy rail track on a graded right-of-way costs about $1 million per mile. Why, then, is the Over-the-Rhine loop a $110 million+ project? It's because there is so much stuff in the way that has to be moved. Of all places in Cincinnati to build rail, we picked one of the most expensive places. Streetcar lines are supposed to be less expensive than light rail, heavy rail, or subways, but that depends on the route. A subway in undeveloped land could well be less expensive than a streetcar in an established street with lots of utilities. A light rail line on an existing abandoned railroad right-of-way may be less expensive than the Over-the-Rhine loop. I have said that I am not opposed to this project, I just wish we had picked a different route. Yes, the Cincinnati Streetcar as proposed today has a lot of development potential, but it also has a high price tag, maybe even higher than light rail or heavy rail on an easier alignment. All of this development potential means nothing if it doesn't get built.

I think everyone on this board already knew this, but I just got it confirmed in a personal conversation last night. I know a guy who is a friend of some of the radio personalities. He didn't tell me if he was paid to do this or not, but he has called in to radio talk shows with fake stories to provide entertainment content and to "get people riled up on slow nights." He says that someone from the station would call him and tell him what they needed, and then he would call the station back as a listener and make up stuff. Most of the stuff was rooted in reality but was exaggerated. So I guess the moral is, don't believe everything you hear on the radio.

Yes, on this board, a couple hundred pages back. Someone was claiming - I can't remember who - that the City of Cincinnati was governed by a different set of rules because of the city charter or something.

From the Horstman article: "It remains the city's position that Duke is responsible under state law for performing and bearing the full cost of the relocation work." - Dohoney Dohoney is at least acknowleging that state law, as opposed to the municipal code or something else, is what governs the Duke relocation issue. I just wanted to point that out, given our previous discussions about whether or not the state law applies. "The city is investigating potential legal remedy." - Dohoney Uh oh.

^According to Winburn, Duke is requesting $20 to $28 million to move the Duke utilities, but if the City of Cincinnati doesn't come up with the money and a court forces Duke to pay, then Duke will recover the funds via increased rates for 3 years. I can't say enough that this is a really big deal. In the event that this goes to court, it will likely add time to the schedule. The Waldvogel Viaduct took about 10 years, most of which was design and coordination. Projects of this type take a long time. I don't think the City of Cincinnati has the capability to design or construct the Duke utility relocation. That is very specialized work. On another project, Duke used a design consultant from Chicago because there aren't any local ones with ability to do the work.

The Morning Star Not much to see here. I did manage to capture the half-moon shape, though.

Here's another one. Three of the moons were visible but it's hard to capture the moons and cloud bands at the same exposure.

Same here. Colerain is not too bad because the grade is consistent, traffic is low, the road is wide, there are no parked cars (except at the very bottom, soon to be changing), there are few driveways or cross streets, and visibility is good.

Note that Romney isn't necessarily opposed to rail; he just wants to eliminate the federal subsidy. It is conceivable that Amtrak could actually be profitable if the low traffic routes were eliminated. Unfortunately, decisions on routes and schedules are made for political purposes rather than for economic reasons. "If you want to make enemies, try to change something." - Woodrow Willson

I used to be a fan of separated bike paths and bike lanes, but I am generally not anymore. Instead, I favor streets that are safe for bicycling. When I visited Germany, I noticed the very sophisticated design of just about everything. Germany has an excellent transit system, including high-speed rail, local commuter rail, streetcars, an occasional people-mover of one form or another, all very well connected. Their pedestrian facilities including traffic signals are well designed. They have excellent motorways and waterways. Needless to say, people use all of those facillities. When my buddy and I first stepped into the street, we saw a woman in a business dress riding a bicycle. My buddy said, "Wow, look at that!" I said, "Bicycling is normal here." At the train station was a covered parking lot that held hundreds of bicycles. There was only one thing I noticed that didn't seem to work in Germany. The special bicycle routes were basicly ignored. There was a lot of heavy design for bicycles, with marked paths that wove around, sometimes sharing space with cars, and sometimes on the sidewalk. Bicyclists generally rode in the streets as if they were cars and ignored the marked bike paths. In my humble opinion, the thing that would help the most in Cincinnati is a way to cross I-75 by bicycle. There are only 36 crossings between downtown all the way to Butler County, and 18 of those crossings are part of interchanges. Getting through an interchange by bicycle is in my opinion the highest safety risk for bicycles. Think of crossing under I-75 on Mitchel, for example. All interchanges could use some improvement, for that matter. I used to use the pedstrian crossing near Cincinnati State. Sadly, it's been torn down. I would support construction of more crossings of I-75, both for cars and bicycles.

I am blown away by the trouble that people went through to move about before the industrial revolution. Well done. Thanks for posting.

After all you've seen them do over the past 10 years, I think the more pressing question is why do you think they don't have a suburban agenda? I can see that they have an anti-streetcar agenda, but what make you think that they have a "suburban" agenda? What is a "suburban" agenda, anyway? Posters on this thread have been accused of going way off topic, but it's understandable considering that the streetcar is such a fascinating subject. Who would have ever guessed that a council meetin in Blue Ash would have anything to do with the streetcar, or that Steve Chabot is making an issue of it? I'd just like to know why you accuse COAST of being "suburban," as if being "suburban" is bad. After all, most of the City of Cincinnati municipality is suburban.

About 100 years ago, the region of Ohio/Pennsylvania/Indiana was the world's largest oil producing region. This is what started the Age of Oil, and is a good reason why we have so much fantastic architecture from that period. That is, along with coal. Ohio's world dominance is under-appreciated on this board, I think. This was before Oil was discovered in Texas and Oklahoma, and way before anyone was even thinking of Alaska, the North Sea, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, or of course, the Middle East. Some of the oil in our region is relatively shallow, but the reservoirs are also relatively small, compared to Saudi Arabia. You don't have to drill as far to get the oil, but the wells don't produce as much, either. My dad used to work in a stone quarry. He used to find pockets of oil that held a few cups. It would drip out of the rock and get on your clothes. It wasn't enough volume to mess around with. So, it takes relatively little investment, for little profit, to drill these little wells in our region. There were, of course, some larger ones, too. In the early days of automobiles, some farmers would actually drill their own wells, extract their own oil, and refine their own gasoline for their own cars and tractors! A lot of accidents happened, so it isn't done much anymore. Many of these little wells are barely profitable. It takes almost as much energy to extract the oil as the oil is worth. So, they can only be operated profitably when the economics are right. In recent years, the price of oil has been high. So, lots of old wells and some new ones have been activated. Many of the wells produce only a few barrels per day. In the big picture, they aren't worth much. The United States consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day; we produce about 9 million and import about 11 million. I don't know if the equipment is usually owned by the landowner, or an oil company. While geologists can guess whether or not a well will produce oil, based on experience and knowlegde of the geology, the only way to really know for sure it to drill a well and see if there's any oil there. Lots of wells are unsuccessful, and the that has to be accounted in the economics. But if you are landowner with a little oil well, and you extract a couple barrels of oil per day, worth $100 to $200 per day, depending on the price of oil at the time, wouldn't it be nice to have an income stream like that?

^Why do you say they have a suburban agenda?

^"Prepare for becoming homeless?" I thought if one became homeless, it was already too late to prepare, unless he was doing it for a reason other than necessity. Homeless folks who I have met personally have had very few possessions. Besides the clothes he was wearing, one man owned a sleeping bag, one owned a winter coat that he stored at a friend's place in the summer, and another owned some camping gear including a tent. I read of a guy who went through college living in a tent on campus, in a different place every night, but he wasn't truly homeless; he just didn't want to spend any money on rent.

Back around 1993, a baseball field was painted on the ground. I wonder how much green paint it took to cover all of that asphalt! It looked really strange on the ground because it was sloped, but it showed up in aerial photos and looked really nice. They also constructed an entrance gate. Jim Tarbell led the effort. It would be neat to see photos of that.

The Enquirer is a private enterprise whose goal is to make money, not provide a public forum. They have been editing / censoring their Letters to the Editor section for many years. If I had any complaint about their comments policy, it is that they publish comments but then delete them, giving posters a false impression that the posters are contributing to a public forum. They could instead solicit comments and only publish ones they approve, like they do in their paper version, or like KJP does in his publication.

In other news, I received a mailing from Congressman Steve Chabot, "Working hard to prioritize your tax dollars." He states his position on Transportation Priorities, Regulatory Reform, Energy, Small Business Access to Capital, Health Care, and National Defense. In his Transportation section, he states, "That is why Congressman Steve Chabot has been a dedicated advocate for replacing the Brent Spence Bridge and authorized an amendment to limit federal funding for luxery projects like the Cincinnati Streetcar." He also includes a survey, with only 3 questions. Question number 1 is: "Do you support additional federal tax dollars being used to fund the Cincinnati Streetcar Project?" Yes, No, or Unsure. The other two questions were about veterans receiving priority for Section 8 vouchers and the Dalton Street post office. His mailing has a photo of downtown Cincinnati.

Jake - thenks for that report.

There are some interesting photos on this site: preserveblueashairport.com

For what it's worth, the number of landings at Lunken has declined dramatically in recent years due to the economy. Most of the change was from recreational flights. Whatever economic impact the Bue Ash Airport had, in terms of jobs or whatever, was certainly declining as well.

^ The Blue Ash airport is a relic of the past. Cincinnati used to have several small airports - one was located where Northgate Mall is today, and one was located where Western Hills Plaza is today. These were there in the early days of aviation at a time when it was expected that private planes would be much more popular. The 1948 Metropolitan Master Plan for Cincinnati and Hamilton County called for 13 airports plus 3 heliports: "Master Plan studies indicate the need by 1956 for these aviation facilities in the Cincinnati Area: A major airport for scheduled air transport A major airport for military flying and cargo transport, with additional provision for exensive private flying A major airport for non-schedule miscellaneous commercial and instructional flying Several airports in Hamilton County, and on in Kenton or Campbell County, for private flying Facilities for amphibous basin and operation Provision for future operation of helicopters in several locations" Furthermore, "Approval by the C.A.A. of the Airports Plan including the site selected by City Council at Blue Ash has cleared the way for immediate steps toward the development and early completion of the required facilities there." Interestingly, have you ever heard of the County-City Airport Committee? "There has been set up by ordinance of City Council and similar action on the part of the Hamilton County Commissioners a group designated as the County-City Airport Committee to co-ordinate action of the county and city with respect to the airport." The 1948 plan admits, "Private flying fields are still in the pioneering stage. It has not been proved in most cases that they can show a profit on the capital invested." But why not build one with other people's money? "The Federal Airport Act (1946) furnishes financial assistance for both major airports and minor flying fields." (Replace the word "airport" with the word "streetcar" and you will find similar sentiments today.) In the end, we all know that CVG became the major commercial airport, Lunken became the minor commercial airport, and Blue Ash became the airport that private pilots use. All of the other airports are hardly even remembered. The private pilots, obviously, would like to keep their Blue Ash airport; it doesn't have to be financially viable for them to enjoy the use of it. The City of Blue Ash would gladly give up the small economic benefit of the airport in exchange for a larger economic benefit in the form of some other development, such as office parks. Normally, the sale of the Blue Ash airport to Blue Ash would be non-controversial, since both Cincinnati and Blue Ash would each get what they want. If it wasn't for a handful of pilots backed by the FAA, it wouldn't even be an issue.