Eigth and State

Most of the streetcar opponents think of the streetcar as an amenity similar to a museum or park rather than basic infrastructure such as a bridge or water main. The proponents see the streetcar as basic infrastructure. That is the main difference between the two sides. Both sides claim that the other "doesn't get it."

OK, I'll bite. Cost: ~$128 million Route: a loop through downtown Cincinnati and Over-the-Rhine mostly on a pair of north-south one-way streets. Opposition: Organized by a fellow named Smitherman who is a political enemy of the mayor. That's the short version.

Harold Lloyd was a silent movie actor and stuntman. While these clips were obviously staged, I enjoy these old movies for the street scenes.

Norwood has a reputation for being hillbilly. That said, I am not aware of any racially motivated incidents at least in recent history. I spend a lot of time in neighboring Bond Hill and although Bond Hill may be a little rough in spots it feels safe enough. Cincinnati had a pretty serious race riot in the 1960's along with many other American cities. The story goes that a barrier was made at the southern border between Cincinnati and Norwood to keep the riots from spreading into Norwood. The other big event in Norwood was when the GM plant closed in 1985 or so, instantly laying off thousands and sparking a chain reaction as parts suppliers and associated services all closed. Norwood hasn't really recovered from that event even today. The Cincinnati race riots flared up again in 2001, but in my humble opinion the riots were more about troublemakers taking advantage of a bad situation with some racial undertones rather than a full-scale racial conflict like the earlier riots. Nearby St. Bernard has a similar situation to Norwood demographically.

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"Freedom way will be a street that goes from one stadium to the other. a beautiful, brick and tree lined street. " I am happy that some effort is being put into the infrastructure to make it pedestrian-friendly and all, but the stadiums especially the football stadium are just so big that they overpower the potential for a human-scaled environment. I guess it could have been worse.

^The overall problem with the stadium plan is that the stadiums, especially the football stadium, is just so big that it overpowers the scale of everything around it, it is surrounded by a sea of parking lots, and there is practically no private property to develop anywhere near it. I never expected this proposal to be taken seriously since it was outside of Hamilton County, but I mentioned to my friends that the football stadium would have fit much better next to the ATP tennis center across from Kings Island - the highway and parking infrastructure was already there. It's hard to imagine the football stadium integrated with the streetcar. Everyone is going to want to use the streetcar in the hour before and after the game, yet they are not going to want to walk through a sea of parking lots to get to the streetcar. Place the station too close to the stadium and there will be a crowding problem, but place it too far away and people won't use it. How does the Waterfront Line in Cleveland do on game days?

"The opponents say the streetcar needs to be studied more." Studies are a cop-out for making a decision. Asking for more studies indicates that the arguments for the project aren't strong enough to warrant full support for construction, yet there is still enough interest in the project that it is not politically correct to kill it once and for all. The streetcar project might be a wild success, but it could also be a dismall failure. There is no guarantee that if construction were to start today, that it will actually be finished on time and on budget. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that if it is built it will realize it's redevelop potential. It is an extraordinary risk for a politician to support such a highly visible project. At the same time, there is a risk that the project WILL be a success; any politician who opposes it now could be the laughingstock later. So, the politicians tend to sit on the fence and offer a token amount of support for more studies, rather than coming up with the money to build it outright. Compare to a water, sewer, highway, or bridge job. The public doesn't follow those jobs because they are boring, and they do not make the news. The streetcar is a highly visible project that everyone seems to have an opinion about, whether they know what they are talking about or not. Queen City Metro started using the big articulated buses on some of the main corridors a year or two ago. They didn't have public meetings, ballot initiatives, or City Council debates. They just did it, with a minimum of public involvement. No one seemed to notice, especially the suburbanites who have never ridden a city bus before. Not surprisingly, they have gotten hardly a mention on this board, which despite all of the bashing of the local mainstream media, basicly mimics the topics presented by the media. But in terms of the transit history of Cincinnati, those big articulated busses are pretty significant; not since the historic Cincinnati streetcars were able to pull a "dummy" car for more capacity or since some of the interurbans pulled freight cars has anything so big occupied Cincinnati's streets.

^That's why I mentioned Metro Moves, which included a streetcar component very similar to the current proposal, and therefore put the streetcar in the political arena in the first place. You can think of the streetcar as the Metro Moves plan scaled back.

Democracy is a terrible way to run a railroad. I'm not sure how the streetcar ended up in the political arena in the first place; maybe Metro Moves started it off. The City of Cincinnati never asked for an election before rebuilding Fort Washington Way.

"The suburbanites, who overwhelmingly oppose the project, can't vote..." The situation is much more complicated than that, since suburbanites can still support the issue with campaign donations. The Hamilton County stadium tax, for example, had lots of support from outside the county including Northern Kentucky. In addition, some City of Cincinnati city council incumbants and candidates have aspirations of moving on to Hamilton County Commissioner or state and federal offices, and while serving on city council are already trying to build a following in the wider political district. Finally, much of the City of Cincinnati IS suburban, especially on the West Side. Go take a drive out to Westwood, Mt. Airy, or College Hill; the built form is only slightly more dense than Green, Colerain, or West Chester townships. In my humble opinion, a small minority of urban pioneers in Over-the-Rhine and Clifton is NOT going to generate enough support for the streetcar. Instead of alienating them, why not get them on the proponent's side? Any election that splits the vote between young and old is going to be won by the old. First, there are more of them. Second, the older generation consistently has a higher participation rate. Third, anyone under 18 doesn't contribute to the election at all, while there is no cooresponding age limit at the high end. Just look at what is happening with Social Security: young people are being told that Social Security is going to be bankrupt in 30 years, while the old people keep on supporting it.

The City of Forest Park, which consists mainly of curvey residential streets, is divided into sections where every street in a section starts with the same letter. People say things like "I live in the M Section."

Try Frey Electric.

^Those tracks are lightly used. The I&O uses those tracks only for the B&B circus train and an occasional passenger excursion, I think, and since they allow certain tourist and dinner trains on their other tracks they may not object to have a streetcar demonstration, especially if they can make a buck or two. If there's any reason why they wouldn't allow it, it's probably insurance. Meanwhile, SORTA owns the passenger rights to the OASIS line. Do they even need permission from the I&O? I don't know the answer. Maybe it's not the best idea, but it isn't pointless. The point is to get some publicity by having something running. The typical person will see it on television and get the idea that it is a modern streetcar and not a toonerville trolley, a japenese bullet train or a steam locomotive. Despite all of the media coverage, or maybe because of all of the negative coverage, the typical person still doesn't know what it is. Jeffrey - no polling that I'm aware of. John might know if there is any.

^Modifying the tracks? I thought streetcars ran on standard guage. Something about a streetcar body on the bed of a truck just doesn't seem right. So if the last thing the streetcar needs is a publicity stunt, what is the first thing it needs?

The people who would be responsible for moving the utilities never really took this project seriously in the first place. In the construction industry, it is very common for projects to be proposed and not be built, or be delayed by many years. The most common reason for a project to die is lack of funding; technical and legal issues can usually be worked out, given enough money.

The point is that it is a publicity stunt to build support for the project. The typical person will never see it, but they will see pictures of it in the Enquirer or on television. The boathouse tracks do not run in a street, but a portion of the boathouse tracks runs through a paved area in bicentennial park right next to a street, so it would make a good photo op. It only need run for a few weeks, and doesn't require a maintenance facility, etc.

Keep in mind that politicians including our Congressmen are the ones that author the legislation that initiates these subsidies, and many of these politicians travel regularly between Washington, D.C. and many out of the way places, such as, say, Minot, North Dakota.

If the streetcar proponents are looking for a publicity stunt, I think getting something running on a completely different alignment will go a long way in attracting public attention. I have mentioned the existing tracks by the boathouse. Even if it's not meant to be any kind of viable transportation, it will probably get enough tourist traffic to show that it is serious and not just a toonerville trolley.

Someone beat me to Devil's Backbone and Zig Zag Road. A few others are Burnt Schoolhouse Road, Buffalo Ridge Road, Van Zandt Road, Spooky Hollow Road, and the Hairpins of Ebenezer, all in Hamilton County. There's an intersection of Grinn and Barrett in West Chester. I laughed really hard when I discovered that the first time; one of my co-workers at work was looking at a map and said "over here at Grinn and Barrett," and then realizing what he said he just looked down and said "Oh, my." That intersection was later picked by AAA as the funniest street name. Straight Street in Cincinnati is neat, especially if you've been there. It's straight alright; straight up a steep hill. Other streets I can think of that have national recognition: Bourbon Street Wall Street Sunset Boulevard

Too bad they are cutting it up, but I guess a piece of it is better than nothing.

^Not to a politican who needs to get some credit before the next election!

Speaking of groundbreaking, I know this is kind of silly, but how does a groundbreaking ceremony go if it's in the street? Usually a bunch of politicians in suits and hardhats with brand new shovels line up for a photo op, and they toss a shovelful of grass and topsoil while mugging for the camera. What are they going to do if it's in the street? Swing pickaxes? Sorry, I just get a kick out of poking fun at politicians.

Elevated PRT was proposed for Cincinnati some years ago, and the Enquirer published some pretty pictures, but it was never a serious proposal. Downtown Cincinnati has a great deal of rush-hour and peak loading, and the PRT was not capable of handling peak loads. It had even less peak capacity than a bus! Besides that, the technology had not been proven in practice. It may work in some applications, though.

^The scope of place is local, as is the title of this thread. Local communities are fighting public housing, with the example being Green Township. In medieval times, most towns of any size had some kind of wall, or at least some defense against the rest of the world. This is true of all cultures, whether they be European, Asian, or Native American. Nowadays, physical walls are uncommon, but there are all kinds of cultural and legal barriers. The Green Township Trustees are not shy about keeping the riff-raff out, and are agressively purchasing problem properties, tearing them down, and making parks of them. They are purposely hindering public transportation. I can even tell of one instance where a public official argued specifically against a traffic improvement that would have connected an existing apartment complex with mostly "low income" people to a commercial corridor. Clearly, the residents are trying to protect their property. It's a blatant "not in my backyard, not in my school district, and not in my neighborhood" issue. Quite frankly, local politics is not about the greater good.