Eigth and State

Cheer up, KJP! House arrest isn't that bad. :-D

^"Building the 3-C rail is much cheaper than adding lanes." This them has been repeating many times on this board, and I don't think anyone is arguing that building the 3-C rail will be less expensive than adding an additional lane to I-71. Suppose the 3-C rail costs $400 million to build and adding one lane to I-71 costs $900 million to build. One is less expensive than the other. Ok, we have that settled. Whether or not we can afford to build either one of them is an entirely different question. If Ohio had the cash lying around, we could build one, or the other, or both, depending on how much cash we had. But if we don't have the cash laying around, we might not be able to build either one. The simple fact is that Ohio does not have the cash lying around. In fact, we have an $8 billion dollar deficit. The only way to build it is to come up with the funding by reducing funding somewhere else. (Or, accept a gift from the feds). We might be able to reduce spending on highways and divert that money to the 3-C, but that is a tough sell. It's hard to find a solution.

"Every mode receives subsidy..." I'm been thinking about this in light of the comparison between North America and Europe. Europe has a higher percentage of their freight shipped by deep sea shipping. Although harbors and navigation has been improved, no government paid anything to put the oceans there, and the oceans have essentially unlimited capacity. As for freight in Europe, the preferred mode is sea first, and then railroad and highway. In the United States, the east coast carries a lot of freight by water, but the interior is mostly isolated. The primary means of shipping freight is by railroad, then by highway, with some percentage shipped on inland waterways. So, without having to build an extensive freight railroad system, Europe can afford to build more passenger railroads. Basicly, their primary freight system is deep sea shipping, and their secondary freight system is railroads, which they share with passenger trains. In the United States, especially in the interior, our primary freight system is railroad, and our secondary freight system is highways, which are shared with passenger cars. This is why Europe can more easily afford passenger rail than we can. Europe can't afford to build a passenger system AND a freight system, and neither can we. But Europe was given a free freight system, and we weren't. Japan has a similar situation to Europe: deep sea freight and an excellent passenger train system. The United States is simply never going to be like Europe. The geography is so different. Just tossing the idea out there. Does that make sense?

"I don't see many folks opting to take I-71 in the future when it is even more packed to the hilt that it is now, fuel prices escalate...." If fuel prices escalate, wouldn't you expect LESS traffic on I-71?

^The same thing has always happened with newspapers and other media. The difference is that today's media reaches more people. Keep in mind that throughout history, literacy rates were very low until the last century or two. There is more information in one edition of the weekly newspaper than some people in history were exposed to in their entire lives. The Cincinnati, Portsmouth and Georgetown Railroad officially gave it's reason for going out of business as competition with radio. No longer did people travel to Cincinnati for entertainment.

Update: there seems to be some work going on at the old station site to light up these ruins at night to entertain the dinner train passengers.

KJP, if there's a wedding, will it be in Cherkassy or Cleveland?

Somehow I had a feeling that Rob would comment about that tractor. I'm still waiting for his comment on the locomotive. :-D

The pub itself is beautiful. The parking lot surrounding it is ugly.

"I'm not sure that's actually state law." ORC 4951.54 Free transportation of police and firemen. Upon the granting of franchises to traction companies or motor or bus transportation companies throughout this state for the use of streets, roads, and highways for the transportation of passengers, it must be provided, as one of the considerations for such use of the public highways, that such traction companies or motor or bus transportation companies shall carry free as passengers on all regular cars and busses, policemen and firemen when on duty and in uniform. :police: Effective Date: 10-01-1953

Some trivia just for fun: Streetcar companies in Ohio are required to provide free fares to police and firefighters in uniform. :police:

"Maybe you are a pessimist?" Naw - A contrarian, maybe, but not a pessimist. Governments at all levels are facing declining revenues. It is VERY hard to build anything new in that political climate. Humans are creatures of habit. One could make the case that ODOT should spend less on highways and more on rail, but spending less on highways is going to make someone unhappy. It is easier to just leave things the way they are. During the 1950's when the interstates were built, governments at all levels were facing INCREASING revenue. That's why is was so easy to build highways, dams, wastewater treatment plants, parks, schools, airports and all kinds of other things, not to mention intitiate all kinds of social programs, fight foreign wars, etc. The 1950's are gone. We may never have the opportunity to build like that again. That's not being pessimistic; that's just a projection.

"Won't the west-siders throw rocks at a bus?" Those weren't real west siders throwing the rocks. Those were newcomers that happened to find housing on the west side.

^"For better or for worse, and whether we like it or not, people will continue to insist that symbols that have no connection to actual facts are more important than the facts themselves." And these people vote! Just because a candidate or idea is popular doesn't mean it's right. "Only to be shouted down by family members who have never looked up anything..." Budgets are boring. You can't take a picture of it to put on TV. I feel for you, bro.

"Your west-sider roots might influence the people you know, and therefore the opinions you're exposed to." It's not a question. It's a fact. West Siders have to vote for Steve Chabot, for example. It's a tradition. He shows up at the Elder games. He's a hometown hero and ranks right up there next to Buddy LaRosa and Pete Rose. There's 100,000+ residents of Colerain, Green, and Delhi Townships, and they have very high voter participation rates. That's not a voting block to be ignored. Yet, this particular voting block usually IS ignored. So, whether it's right or not, west siders will feel free to reciprocate, and ignore everyone else's project. The West Side is a place where when you go to vote, some guy in a 3 piece suit will be waiting at the polling place in the rain, he will greet you by name, thank you for coming, and hand you a list of Republican endorsed candidates just in case you forgot the flyer that you recieved in the mail. He will often be the only promoter outside the polling place. If you still don't think the West Side is important, note that Dick Cheney had lunch at the Price Hill Skyline the day before the Bush-Gore election. West siders don't want the streetcar. They don't want the 3-C. They don't want stadiums, or casinos. They just want to be left alone. They will vote for candidates that promise to end spending on pet projects, reduce their taxes, and leave them alone. It doesn't have anything to do with the technological advantages of rail. As for myself, I am smart enough to realize that the world is bigger than the West Side. But I'm also aware that the block of voters in the West Side is big enough to turn a statewide issue, and the 3-C does NOT have a following on the west side. I mean, most west-siders have never even BEEN to Cleveland! KJP, maybe you should charter a tour bus from Western Hills Plaza to Tower City!

^All I can say is that this forum has a completely different crowd than everyone else I know. Most people I know think that the Cincinnati Streetcar or the Ohio 3-C is the dumbest idea in the world. And these people vote. In fact, they voted for Kasich. Note that what I want to happen is not the same as what I think will happen. Cheers. :-)

I've been watching the CVSR thread. In Cincinnati we have a few "tourist" excursions, and one of them serves the Riverfest event, but for the most part Cincinnatians have never been on a real passenger train. Most of us don't even know that Amtrak comes through Cincinnati! We just got a new Amtrak street sign in front of CUT that I bet few noticed. Just look at the opposition to the proposed streetcar here. It's a tough political climate to expect a politician to build something. But find a way to get something running that people actually use, and it will get more attention than a whole stack of newsletters promoting rail.

"I'm pretty sure he read this the first hundred times you suggested it." Sorry if that sounded harsh; I didn't mean for it to be. Sometimes I feel like the only one on this forum that is not a rail cheerleader. I think of myself as a practical, realistic person and I get tired of the optimism on this forum. As KJP said in a previous post, the 3-C has failed many times before. As an analogy, so has the Ohio casino issue. After many, many, years, the casino issue finally passed, somewhat quietly and without fanfare. What made the difference? I think what made the difference was experience in other states. Enough Ohioans have been to Lawrenceburg and similar places to see the casinos. Ohio just doesn't have support for rail at this time, not because of some shortcoming with rail, but because of inexperience. There's a generation that has never been on a train. Much has been said about starting small, i.e., we can't afford a bullet train, so build a "slow" train instead. Well, the 3-C might STILL be too big. Maybe something between Cincinnati and Dayton, or Cleveland and Akron, or Toledo and Detroit, or better Amtrak service over one of the existing routes, or light rail within cities might be something to try. And don't give up on buses! Megabus is showing some promise, and it didn't require any state ballot initiatives! With all respect to KJP and others, what good does it really do to keep trying a strategy that isn't working? Do you really think it is going to work the next time? New track costs about $1 million per mile. There are companies that build diesel rail cars that seat 90 people and go 90 mph. Why not find an abandoned or lightly used right-of-way somewhere and get something running for $50 million instead of $400 million?

"It's never the money..." For better or for worse, and whether we like it or not, the proposed streetcar has become a symbol of the City of Cincinnati city budget.

"What, like sleep?? I slept last month." Yes, sleep would be good. Seriously, we all appreciate your efforts, but maybe a new approach would be in order? Get some rest, bro. :-)

KJP, I really wish there was a way to channel all of your energy into something useful.

Just so you know, families in the 'burbs aren't averaging 10 children. They are barely averaging 2.

Yeah, yeah, I know, never send a bus to do a train's job... But UO forumers can take heart that Megabus now serves Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland. Too bad that there is no route between Columbus and Cleveland, but Megabus seems to be growing in popularity. :-)

^"...But really didn't collapse until 1967." About the same time that automobiles and the interstates really took off. True, the automobile had been around for 50 years and the interstates weren't built in a day, but the decline of passenger railroads more or less coincided with the rise in automobile travel. Today it takes less than 24 hours to drive from Ohio to Florida. In 1950, it still took several days over winding, rural highways, and without the familiar directional signs of today, it took a good map and decent map-reading skills that not everyone has. Along with highways came motor lodges or motels (as opposed to hotels,) chains of fuel stations and restaurants, and all of that. It's hard to imagine today that in the peak of the railroad era, little if any of that stuff was available.

^ I agree. I grew up in Ohio and never imagined myself leaving until I travelled to some other places that felt more comfortable. However, I feel like a different approach might do better. The 3-C rail has been proposed and rejected many times over the last 30 years, as KJP detailed earlier.