Eigth and State

Spring Grove Avenue is probably the most direct route, and it's nearly level. I would feel as safe on Spring Grove as any other route.

"However, as for overhead wires shouldn't the catenary be much lower than any overhead wires in uptown and therefore cause few problems?" There has been a lot of discussion about the visual effects of overhead wires. On the streetcar lines that I have seen, the catenary really wasn't very bad. However, I couldn't find a streetcar line on a street that also had overhead utility wires. It may be prudent to put all other overhead utilities underground just for political reasons; people will look at the overhead utilities that were already there and say, "Those overhead wires really make this street ugly." I don't know if it's safe to have overhead electric utility wires and catenary wires on the same street. What if they somehow came in contact with each other? Also, wires get in the way of firefighters. It's hard enough to work around the wires with ladder trucks; adding more wires will just make things more dangerous. I guess this applies more to the Over-the-Rhine section than to uptown. Existing rails can be removed, but at a cost. Streetcar rails are more substantial in some places than in others. Vine Street was rebuilt fairly late in the streetcar history, so those rails might be set on steel ties in concrete. The last thing to do is forget about them, and surprise a contractor with unexpected cost. This is how costs get out of hand, and projects go over budget. I doubt that anything from the Vine Street Cable Railway survives, but if they happen to find a cable car conduit, those things can be substantial. In any case, this is a complicated project.

How were they going to get to Berry Yard? Take a circuitous route through Norwood, or construct new ROW between the OASIS line and Berry Yard? Interestingly, Berry Yard is connected by an abandoned line to the former CL&N through Idlewild. Portions of the CL&N between Cincinnati and Norwood are owned by SORTA; there are a few gaps where the ROW has not been preserved. I wonder if it is feasible to extend the 3-C to downtown Cincinnati via the CL&N? Alternatively, I wonder if it is feasible to terminate the 3-C at Berry Yard and connect to downtown over the CL&N with Light Rail. Too bad the CL&N doesn't go close to U.C. Terminating the 3-C in Sharonville with light rail service between Sharonville and Downtown with a stop at U.C. east campus and west campus would be a very good situation.

How about street drainage? If the streetcar rails change the grade or cross-slope of the street, the drainage has to be accounted for. In addition, streetcar rails act like gutters that channel water to low points. Historic Cincinnati streetcar rails had extra gutters built into the rails at low points. I don't know if this practice is still done for modern systems. Any "bumpouts" or modification to the curbs will likely affect the street drainage. Don't forget about overhead utilities. If there are conflicts with the streetcar wires, something has to be moved. It is good practice to put all electric and communcation wires underground, except for the streetcar catenary. Putting these wires underground is a big expense and involves more digging. Utilities tend to take advantage of street projects when they get the chance. For example, maybe there is a water main that is 90 years old. Cincinnati Water Works, realizing that it will be more expensive to replace the water main after the streetcar is built, may take the initiative to replace the water main now. Some major sewer and water infrastructure was built ahead of the Fort Washington Way project in this manner. If the streetcar is supposed to generate new development, the utilities may realize that the present utilities will not be able to support new development and move to increase capacity. Even for painting jobs, if the on-street parking is affected, it may involve more than just painting. It may involve replacement of any lost parking spaces somewhere else. Post office routes, garbage collection routes, bus stops, streetcleaning routes, and all kinds of other things might be affected. This is why street work takes so long. It is not uncommon for City of Cincinnati street projects to take 10 years. It can be done, but it's not "easy." The rendering of the bicycle lane a few posts back scares me, especially if it was intended for Vine Street Hill. The "bumpout" for the streetcar stop will lead to ponding of water on the uphill side of the "bumpout" unless the drainage is accomodated. It is possible to add a drainage grate at the low point, but there is a bicycle lane proposed there. It is not good practise to make bicycle ride over grates. Lack of a grate may result in street drainage flowing over the sidewalk right into the waiting area. Finally, we have existing street car rails in the street that ironically are probably going to be in the way. (Did they have those in Portland?) Those were very substantially built and will not be removed easily. Street design is not something to be taken lightly, and is not something that can be done quickly.

"Automobile fuel efficiency standards are good policy. They do cause people to use less gasoline and it is a realistic conservation measure." Gramarye and I just provided theoretical and empirical evidence that fuel efficiency standards do NOT cause people to use less gasoline. Does fuel efficiency cause people to use less gasoline per mile? Obviously, a car that gets 24 mpg will use fewer gallons of gasoline than a car that gets 8 mpg. However, there is more than one variable. Americans use more gasoline since fuel efficiency standards have been enacted because there are more drivers and also more miles per driver.

^--- Cool! So how did you manage to book this trip? Not many trains make it to the boathouse anymore but I saw one recently and it was travelling at about 5 mph.

"Finally, we do have options closer to shore, including on land in Alaska. A coalition, of which I presume you're a part, of NIMBY and environmentalist activists has thwarted every effort to explore those options." Yes, there is oil there, but it is a drop in the bucket in the global market. The U.S. consumes 20 million barrels of petroleum per day. At that rate, the ANWR reserves will provide the present U.S. consumption for 3 years. It has been estimated that the ANWR reserves will shift the calculated peak oil date by about 3 weeks. I'm not saying we shouldn't drill; I'm just saying that the attention that ANWR has received is unwarranted. There is also a separate similar oil reserve in Alaska owned by the U.S. Navy intended for use an an emergency supply.

"Republican politicians fought against increased automobile fuel economy standards forever." Even so, fuel economy standards were enacted, and demand for fuel INCREASED. You can't reduce demand for fuel by rainsing efficiency standards. People will simply drive more miles.

"We in the U.S. prefer to send $500 billion to $1 trillion of our wealth overseas..." Oh come on. Much of that $500 billion to $1 trillion came from overseas oil in the first place.

^--- Carter tried to ban petroleum imports, which was probably the most dramatic of all. Of course, it didn't happen. The president really has no control over the oil market.

"To me it just seems like a very easy thing to add..." In my humble opinion, you underestimate the difficulty involved in making changes to established infrastructure. Nothing is easy. Adding streetcar rails and overhead wires is a very big deal; I think some folks on this board appreciate that. Adding special bike lanes, changing the parking situation and other modifications will only make a complicated project more complicated.

There may have been a raceway down Eggleston to dump water, and possibly use it for hydropower, after the segment of the canal down Eggleston was abandoned. I have a feeling that the raceway is still there, as well as the original canal lock walls, buried under the street somewhere. The Broadway Commons site contains about 40 feet of fill, to give you an idea of what the original ground in that area looked like.

I don't think you want to go there. Prohibiting bicycles is like prohibiting firearms: you are going to make a certain special interest group very angry, to the point of holding up your streetcar project. Instead of banning bicycles, why not ban automobiles instead? :lol: We could use MORE traffic on Vine Street, not less. For that matter, there should be bike racks at streetcar stops.

A $25,000 car that travels 125,000 miles in its life averages $0.20 per mile for depreciation. That's almost half of the cost.

I don't think a separate bike lane in the OTR section of Vine is appropriate. Traffic is already slow on Vine, and a bicycle should be able to ride in the center of the lane and keep up with traffic. A separate lane will make confusion more confused. There is a drawback associated with streetcar rails, and that is for bicycles coasting down Vine. They will just have to slow down and be more careful. At any other place, the rails shouldh't be an issue.

Riding the bus to work costs about 10% of the cost of driving, yet most people drive. Obviously, non-monetary costs such as lost time, flexibility, etc., mean a lot to most people.

I just looked up in the Used Car Buying Guide what miles are worth. They say to allow for 15,000 miles per year, and anything over that should reduce the value of a used car by 1% for every 1000 miles. So, a 5 year old used car is expected to have 75,000 miles on it. Suppose that it is worth $8,000. The same car with 1 additional trip between Cincinnati and Cleveland and back will have 75,500 miles on it and be worth $40 less. That's $0.08 per mile.

^---- Good thing that biker remembered to wear his helmet.

KJP, is there a reason why you don't move to Europe?

"I mention that the City doesn't run the sewers..." But the city DOES run the sewers! The 1968 agreement that formed MSD was not ideal, and has resulted in a lot of stress, but it clearly set up the City of Cincinnati as the operator of the sewers. All MSD employees are city employees. Yes, the city and county have clashed over sewers, and it was the county commissioners that initiated the QUEST program to extend sewers to unsewered areas, but it is clearly the city that operates the system. The city did not have to sign the 1968 agreement, but they chose to do so. "You seem to have an extremely strange habit of missing the point." Sorry, I don't do it on purpose. :laugh:

"Over time, I believe we will, or at least that we'll shift away from oil." As if we have a choice? If projections hold, in 2035 we will have half the oil available to us today on a global scale. In 2070, about 10%.

The water quality in the Mill Creek has been getting better since about 1940. What is Hedeen's other book?

Does Portland have anything comparable to Vine Street? If I remember right, Jake posted a photo of a bicycle crossing a streetcar rail at a slow speed, and there was no problem. A bicycle tire getting stuck in a streetcar rail at 35 mph is probably the most dangerous thing associated with streetcar rails that I can think of. That said, I didn't know that Vine Street was some major bicycle corridor.

"despite the rather bleak subject." Bleak? Why, sewer and water utilities are at least as interesting as street railways, have a longer history, a greater value, and arguably have more influence on development than transportation. There hasn't been as much written about them because most of the infrastructure is underground and out of sight.

"So did you see any mention of the City of Cincinnati's sewer expansion policy in all that?" The City of Cincinnati's policy is to let MSD deal with it. The City of Cincinnati has neither an expansion policy nor an urban growth policy; they simply don't have a policy regarding sewer extensions. "Never build anything underground - you won't get credit for it." - former Ohio governor James Rhodes. That said, the director of MSD is a city employee, who answers to the City Manager. Since MSD went through 6 directors in 8 years in the 1990's, it is obvious that the relationship between the City Manager and the director of MSD has not been smooth. (The current director has been there for about 5 years.) While the director doesn't necessarily have 100% control, he certainly has a great influence. The current director of MSD has an expansionist policy.