Eigth and State

I think Republicans are generally opposed to it because they see it as an unnecessary government service. In the eyes of the replublicans, it should be operated by a private company. If a private company can't operate the system at a profit, then neither can the government. Granted, this is not consistent with their attitude toward highways, but that's how it is.

Getting thrown off of a bicycle going downhill at speed is the worst hazard to bicyclists. They just won't be able to coast down Vine Street any more.

Nice! Keep 'em coming, please!

^--- Some cities still have policies like that. Just for fun, can you imagine what the City of Cincinnati would be if the boundaries were taken as the water service area? The city would have a population of about a million.

Don't know. The Census is still conducting field surveys. There is supposed to be a press conference tomorrow for the Census to give a status report.

"As West Chester gets larger, what do you want to bet that they try to pass an earnings tax as well? " As for the moment, West Chester cannot pass an earnings tax, because in Ohio townships do not have the authority to pass an earnings tax. There is a possibility that West Chester will incorporate, or alternatively, townships will be granted the authority to pass an earnings tax.

"Now figure out exactly how the sewer district decides to expand, and then we can talk about that." Quest - Unsewered Areas of Hamilton County Summary, 1993 page 1: "In 1993, the Hamilton County Board of Commissioners recognized the need for a plan for wastewater management in areas of the County which are unsewered....These unsewered areas comprise approximately 90,000 acres or 35% of the total land area of the county." page 2: " The QUEST report provides a comprehensive plan for this network in order to accomodate both existing and future developments." page 8: "In the past, in common with many other metropolitan areas, Hamilton County has seen a net population shift from the central urbanized area to the suburban townships. This trend will likely continue, which will maintain pressure for development in the unsewered areas of the County. QUEST provides planning for the future construction of trunk sewers throughout the unsewered areas of the County. This construction will facilitate increased population growth in the unsewered areas." Table 2, page 9: Approximate 1990 population of unsewered portion: 60,000. Estimated Ultimate Build-Out Population of Unsewered Portion: 562,800. Page 13: "The trunk sewers and other facilities will be constructed through MSD's Capital Improvement Program." page 15: "In 1994, construction of the Taylor Creek Wastewater Treatment Plant was completed. The plant is located at the intersection of Harrison Avenue with East Miami River Road..." page 16: "The total estimated project cost for the Taylor Creek Drainage Basin is $30,681,000." Page 59: Sewer needs as expressed by property owners and developers will be a major consideration in the project nomination process." --------------- The Taylor Creek basin is, of course, the location of the Harrison and Rybolt area, which has exploded in development since 1993.

"How nice - you are only 10 years out of date." What can I say? It's 2010, and the 2010 Census results haven't been published yet. 2000 is the most recent decennial Census data. The Census publishes intermediate year estimates, but those estimates are also based on the 2000 Census.

Cincinnati Water Works is owned and operated by the City of Cincinnati. MSD is owned by Hamilton County and operated by the City of Cincinnati, by agreement signed in 1968. All MSD employees are City of Cincinnati employees. The director of MSD is a City of Cincinnati employee.

The City of Cincinnati is losing population. Hamilton County (which contains the City of Cincinnati) is losing population. Unincorporated Hamilton County (Hamilton County minus the City of Cincinnati and all other municipalities) is gaining population. Data comes from the Hamilton County Data Book and is based on the Census through 2000.

"Bottom line: people want roads, sewers, and services but they don't want to pay for them entirely with user fees." The game is to move around such that someone else is paying for the services. This applies to utilities, parks, libraries, or whatever. The Hamilton County Park District, which is partly funded by a county-wide levy, did a study and found out that 50% of the people using the parks were from Butler County.

The city brings in revenue from water and sewer, and supposedly they provide the service at cost. The key is that they are not watching their marginal costs very well. It costs more to serve an outlying suburban area with large lots far away from the river than it does to serve a densely built up area in the core near the river, yet they charge essentially the same. Thus, city residents and businesses are subsidizing suburban residents and businesses. Furthermore, the city is still expanding service while the core is emptying out, adding more infrastructure without adding more ratepayers. If the city charged for service what it actually cost, there would be a tendency for residents and businesses to locate in the core for less expensive services. It is NOT lucrative to extend sewer and water lines. MSD is in the hole for clean water act compliance because combined sewers, which have been discharging to the streams since they were constructed as far back as the 1880's, have been declared in violation of the clean water act. This is a separate issue from extensions.

"You are assuming that this company decided to leave because of some city rule that says that your firm had to do business with a minority owned firm?" Certainly that wasn't the only factor. In addition, two employees's vehicles were damaged in the parking lot, the door was tagged, there was a prositute that hung around the front steps, the City did a terrible job of snow removal (it has since gotten better,) there were drug deals in the neighbhorhood regularly, employees were complaing of having to run up and down stairs all day, the building didn't lend itself to an office very well, the roof leaked, and there wasn't enough parking. Still, I can remember the day when the owner found out about the minority rule. "It has to be a CERTIFIED minority," he said, "otherwise it doesn't do us any good." I don't know the reason for the rule; all I know it that it made my job more difficult, and the owners weren't happy about it. Small cost? maybe, but still totally unnecessary. Suburban businesses don't have to put up with this stuff. "Lakota just put up a school levy that got crushed." School levies are generally doing poorly everywhere. This make sense, since only one in four households has any children at all in them. In 1960, a lot of these suburban school districts had half of their population enrolled in school. Unincorporated Hamilton County is gaining residents and businesses, at the expense of the City of Cincinnati. How can you say that the suburbs are not doing very well?

Those batman angles make me dizzy. Nice photos. Thanks for posting.

Sure there is, but how could you separate the 3-C from politics? Alternatively, we could discuss the 3-C in the politial threads. :-D

"Now we have more and bigger roads, fewer residents, and proportionately higher tax burden." Agreed. Furthermore, the City of Cincinnati itself was responsible for a lot of those bigger roads. In 1930, for example, the streetcar system was starting to show some financial stress, but no one yet had any idea that the streetcar system would barely last 20 more years. In those days, the City of Cincinnati (not the feds, or the state, or the county) built the Western Hills Viaduct, Columbia Parkway, Central Parkway, and countless other highway projects that facilitated development in the suburbs. Perhaps more importantly, the City extended sewer and water utilities well outside of the core city. All of this happened before I was born. I can't change the past. We make mistakes, and we learn from them. Or do we? In addition to the complicated overlapping jurisdictions of the feds, state, county, library, parks systems, etc., the City of Cincinnati is STILL subsidizing development outside of the City of Cincinnati! Why do they do that? In my humble opinion, stopping subsidizing new development outside of the city, as well as stopping subsidizing social services for low-income people (the opposite of the demographic that we want) inside the city will do more for the city than the streetcar will.

No, I agree with Madison. What he is saying is that a democracy with an uneducated electorate will not function properly.

^---- I didn't say large employers. I said employers. I can give you two examples of employers who located OUTSIDE of the city specifically because of policies. Since this is the internet, I don't wish to reveal any names, but I will give you a reasonable detailed description. One firm that I worked for employed 35 people. They were located in a restored building constructed about 1870, not in Over-the-Rhine itself, but nearby. Proximity to the Hamilton County courthouse was a factor why they chose this location. Somewhere along the way, the City of Cincinnati decided to enforce a minority-business enterprise rule. The company began outsourcing printing operations to a certified minority business. The actual cost of this operation wasn't so bad, but the company had to track it to be certified, which is a totally unnecessary business expense. This wasn't the only reason why the company decided to leave, but it probably contributed. The company moved to a new building in a suburban location in a township. The second example is another firm where I worked. This firm was a new startup, and located in a strip mall in a suburban location in a township. When they outgrew their rented space, they moved to a larger rented space in a suburban commercial park. In their employee manual, they specifically pointed out that they chose a location that did not have an earnings tax. This firm employed 60 people. "Good luck getting rid of that and keeping core services at the levels people want them." Townships are doing quite well without the earnings tax. Why can't the City of Cincinnati?

"We are paying our politicians to make informed decisions." I disagree completely. We are paying politicians to maximize their support in elections. Politicians do not necessarily make rational decisions. That's how a democracy works. It's not the fault of the politician. Politicians tend to follow the wishes of the median voter, not the most informed voter. Politicians can pretty much ignore any scientific projections concerning the 3-C, good or bad. But you can bet that they will not ignore opinion polls, petition drives, rallys, conventions, letter writing campaigns, political endorsements, party lines, etc.

^---- Maybe instead of targeting young professionals, streetcar supporters should target employers for relocation to the city. The city, in fact, does the opposite. By enacting anti-business policies such as the earnings tax, minimum wage, small business and minority requirements, etc., they push businesses to suburban locations with more business-friendly policies. Plus, the city subsidizes suburban development.

Suffice it to say that young professionals are not flocking to Over-the-Rhine at the moment, though there are some.

"Three and a half hours to drive from Sharonville, arrive in Florence, run a two minute errand, and drive back to Sharonville. " That drive takes an hour on a good day. Who ever drives an hour for a two minute errand?

Well, the premise of the streetcar is that increased property values will make up for the cost of the streetcar. Increased property values depend on more people moving in to Over-the-Rhine. Nationwide, more young people are buying houses in suburban areas than in cities. So, the trend isn't in favor of the streetcar. If some young people do move to Over-the-Rhine, I expect most of them to bring their cars. There will have to be space to park all of these cars; this space will have to be dedicated to cars instead of more people. So, maybe the property values won't increase as much as hoped. That's all I'm sayin'. :-)

We've got a great big parking garage at the banks. In theory, a person could live in Over-the-Rhine and ride the streetcar to the banks to pick up his car when he needs it. But how many people do you think are actually going to do that? Cars are seen as a door-to-door service. Even if couples and families have one car instead of two or three, that's still one car more than what Over-the-Rhine was originally built for.

I have a booklet titled "Tunnel Diagrams of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Volume II: Western Divisions...Plans, Sections, and Portals, Original Drawings from c1905, with Additions and Revisions to 1965." It is a reproduction of a set of engineering drawings of 64 different railroad tunnels, built from 1853 to 1947. Paging through the drawings, there seems to be no set standard for tunnel dimensions until 1950. Generally, the newer tunnels are larger; also, some older ones were enlarged. Almost all of them have a Roman arch shape; that is, they have vertical sides with a half-circle crown. One has a distance of 11.80' from top of rail to springline, and a total height of 17.14'. Another has 10.13' from top of rail to springline, and has a total height of 18.31'. The smallest width of any of the 64 tunnels is 14 feet. Most of them are between 14 and 16 feet in width. I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any more specifics.