Eigth and State

"There is no clear through route, unlike on the west side." For many, many years, Cross County highway existed as a short segment between Blue Rock Road and Colerain Avenue on the West Side, and another segment between I-75 and Montgomery Road on the east side. Part of the hangup was that the original planned route went right through a large cemetery - what were they thinking? The two segments were finally connected in the 1990's along a slightly different route. West Side connections are still not great. Cross County does almost nothing for Delhi, Westwood, etc.

"land values near transit shows that values tend to fall off with increasing distance..." Allow me to spin this another way. Land values tend to fall of with increasing distance from other things. Look at the apartment ads around U.C. They say "5 minute walk from U.C., 10 minute walk from U.C., etc." One could calculate the time to get from U.C. to any place in Over-the-Rhine. There are two components: the streetcar ride and the walk. For example, 2 minute walk and 8 minute ride, or simply, 10 minutes from U.C. The streetcar zig zag through OTR is 10 blocks longer! Plus it has 10 ninety-degree turns! I don't know how much time it will take to travel this route. Just say 4 minutes more for all the zig-zagging. Now your 10 minute ride is a 14 minute ride. Over-the-Rhine is now 4 minutes farther from U.C. than it would be with the straighter alignment. What does that do to your anticipated property value increases? On top of that, 90 degree turns increase construction and operations cost. Map modified from one made by David Cole<br>

I think a short tunnel section at Calhoun and another at MLK would do wonders to make the streetcar FAST. The streetcar should not have to stop for traffic, ever. I just found this in the Official Plan of the City of Cincinnati, adopted by the City Planning Commission, 1925. "The best scheme for permanent relief north of McMillan is a short tunnel under Jefferson Avenue from the intersection of McMillan and Vine to about Charlton."

Why not get a job at METRO and see what you can do? Or maybe start attending SORTA board meetings?

I'm on a roll tonight. Here's an excerpt from page 22 of the Metro Moves plan from 2002. "Uptown Streetcar Track miles: 7 (all in Hamilton County) Number of stops: 31 Estimated riders per day: 5,000 Estimated cost: $120 million The Uptown Streetcar route would connect downtown Cincinnati to the Uptown area via the Vine Street corridor and serve the University of Cincinnati, Children's Hospital, the Cincinnati Zoo, the EPA, Veteran's Hospital, the UC Medical Center, and other medical facilities. It also would provide a link from those stops to the I-71 light rail line at Martin Luther King Jr. Dr. and in downtown Cincinnati." The planned route at that time was the Vine / Walnut couplet to McMillan, and Vine Street the rest of the way to the Zoo, and a little beyond. There's no zig zagging backwards through Over-the-Rhine.

Mr. Uber - I'm with you. I've had my share of hours on Knowlton's Corner in the rain, standing in a Metro Bus having to fight like a pig to get off the bus, and stuck in the back of a bus with a bunch of rowdy teenagers throwing chicken bones on the floor. I hope for the best. Jim Tarbell is on the board now, so maybe things will get better. "I wonder how their consultants analyze data to understand the potential demand for routes that they might design." I can answer that, because I talked to a Metro planner once. The answer is that they may analyze data, but they don't do anything with it. They do not have the resources to start new routes. To increase service in one place, they have to cut it somewhere else. Since it is very difficult politically to cut service, it is also very difficult to make improvements. This planner told me that there was a bus route that only carried one or two passengers. They employed spotters to prove it. Yet, one of those passengers rose such a fuss about potential service cuts, that City of Cincinnati city council didn't have the political will to authorize a cut in service. As long as the City of Cincinnati contributes funding and has a majority control of the board, stuff like this is liable to happen. Private companies that turn a profit are influenced less by political issues. It may not be possible to operate METRO without a subsidy, but I bet that a good route overhaul could improve the revenue/cost ratio a great deal.

"There must be a few 30 or 40-something single women in Lakewood..." Key words.

The last time Vine Street Hill got new streetcar rails<br>

Metro is long overdue for some route changes. Maybe the streetcar project will get things started.

"The systems are meant to accomplish different things." What, the streetcar is for yuppies and Metro buses are for the urban poor? Two of the board members of SORTA, Melody Richardson and Jim Tarbell, have a stated goal (on their web site) of redevelopment of the city.

Metro's budget is $94 million per year, according to their website. ( I said $70 million before. My mistake.) If Metro can cut and/or consolidate just 3% of the current budget, they should be able to come up with the funding to operate the streetcar. If they can cut and/or consolidate just 3% of the current budget WITHOUT a net loss in service, then all will be well. If the streetcar more than makes up for any service losses elsewhere, then all the better. IF the streetcar can carry 90+ people with just one operator, and IF the line is laid out so that the streetcar doesn't have to stop for traffic, or at least not often, then it is very well possible that the streetcar can gain a net benefit with no net increase in operations cost.

There's a picture of a streetcar on Metro's web site. If I see a picture of a streetcar on a bus schedule, I will be impressed.

"Metro is not going to build or own the Cincinnati streetcar..." Metro didn't build or own Government Square, some park-n-ride lots, or numerous bus shelters either. The City did. I know that, and you know that, but the average person doesn't know, and doesn't care. If the streetcar is BRANDED correctly it has a lot better chance of success, in my humble opinion. If the drivers wear METRO uniforms, the streetcar carries the METRO logo, and the streetcar shares the same call center, schedules, maps, etc, that METRO uses, then it might as well be owned by METRO as far as the average rider is concerned.

Queen City Metro has a $70 million annual budget, 300 some vehicles, two maintenance facilities, hundreds of employees, and a long history. They have survived wrecks, strikes, bad winters, high fuel prices, and more. They have a professional planning team, a public relations person, a human resources department, a customer service line, a website, a special line of vehicles for disabled, and more. Previously, it was assumed that the City of Cincinnati Department of Transportation and Engineering would operate the system. I've got nothing against our good friends at City Hall, but did you think that they were prepared to operate a streetcar? (These folks at City Hall do assist Metro with their infrastructure requirements.) We are looking at a system that costs some $120 million to build, and $3 million per year to operate. Considering interest and inflation and using reasonable projections, it's going to cost $150 million to operate this system over the next 50 years. That's right - operations costs are going to be more than construction costs! I've been saying all along that operations costs are a big deal. If there are $60 million or whatever of capital funds lined up, that's only 30% of the way there. Not only does SORTA have operations funds on hand, but they presumably also will have some stake in the design. I have also been saying all along that 90 degree turns are problematic. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but that they will increase both construction and operations cost. Hopefully, SORTA will have the sense to get it right the first time. Operations costs MUST be minimized to make the streetcar successful! Plus, if they market this right, it could be said that QUEEN CITY METRO is going to build and operate a streetcar between downtown and uptown. This has entirely different connotations than the City of Cincinnati building a streetcar. As we have discussed already, Cincinnati property owners get a tax bill from the City of Cincinnati. Cincinnati workers get an earnings tax taken out of their paycheck. Suburban residents get a bill from Cincinnati Water Works, Cincinnati Bell, and the (former) Cincinnati Gas and Electric Company. People do not understand how governments work, and to hear that CINCINNATI is constructing a streetcar in Over-the-Rhine brings up a lot of resistance, because it is perceived to be their tax money, wheter it really is or not. If QUEEN CITY METRO builds a streetcar, who is going to complain? No one pays taxes to QUEEN CITY METRO, although Metro collects some state and federal funds, and is supported by the city. METRO recently started running big, articulated buses on Reading Road. Where were the NIMBY'S, the letters to the editor, Smitherman and COAST? METRO didn't advertise that they were going to do it (at least I wasn't aware of it,) they didn't hold an election, and they didn't argue about endless studies. They just did it. Ideally, Metro will reduce service on some of the other lines between uptown and downtown, saving enough operating cost from their existing budget to pay for the streetcar operation, establishing a strong rider base right from the start, and providing faster service for the customers all at the same time. WIN WIN WIN Now I'm excited.

Now you're talking. This is the biggest piece of news regarding the streetcar since the feasibility studies came out.

NBow - that's some impressive work. Not that I like the result, but you must have put a lot of time into that.

^--- Nah, interest is OTR is due to a growing disapproval of sprawl as Kuntsler describes it, a renewed interest in traditional cities as Jane Jacobs described them, and a realization that a place like Over-the-Rhine is not likely to be built anywhere in the United States today. Interest was growing before the riots. In the 1990's, the facades were improved one by one - some of the buildings were vacant, but at least they looked good - and gradually the neighborhood came to have a respectable apearance instead of a bombed-out ghetto. There aren't as many broken windows as there used to be. "So what does this have to do with the streetcar? There's basically a moratorium on net increases in density. Big developments like the Banks or QCS and organizations like 3CDC can afford to buy the "sewer credits" they need, which basically amounts to paying for new sewers and treatment facilities outright. For someone trying to grow a business or renovate apartments, it can be very difficult." "Does this concern anyone else? This seems like it could have some negative consequences for the streetcar and expected development around it." This has negative consequences for the entire city! Basicly, the policy of the EPA is to build new development with new sewers in greenfields, instead of adding to problems in the city. Few pay attention to sewers, but developers do, and countless development concepts have failed in the city because of sewer issues. We could easily spend $500 million in the proposed streetcar corridor on sewers. James Rhodes, former governor of Ohio, said "Never build anything underground. You won't get credit for it." Addressing some of the sewer problems in the core would go a long way toward revitalization. Yet, politicians won't get credit for it, because it's underground. The streetcar is something that the media can take a picture of, along with stadiums, performance halls, art museums, fake cable-stayed bridges, and fancy buildings with curved Italian stone walls. Back in the Boss Cox days, the ruling political party was called the "Sewer Republicans" or something like that.

You are right, but Price Hll was stable up through the early 1990's, more than 20 years after I-74 opened.

"How does "what happened to Price Hill and Westwood in the last 30 years" have anything to do with a streetcar line proposal?" True story that I heard from an Elder grad: "I went to Elder, my Dad went to Elder, and my Grandfather went to Elder, but I'm not sending my son to Elder. The crime in that neighborhood is gotten so bad that it isn't safe anymore." Another story: "I know people who sold their houses for a $60,000 loss in Price Hill." Price Hill didn't suffer a gradual decline over many years. Price Hill declined very fast - just about a decade. The reason is very clear - folks who were displaced from Laurel Homes by the City West development moved to Price Hill. Another one, this one not from Price Hill: "We've got kids at our school who don't have the ability to pass the state test, no matter how much effort we teachers put into them. They all come from one Section 8 apartment complex." City West is of course heavily subsidized by the city, and very much praised on this board. But, the other side of the coin is that Price Hill suffered a mighty blow. The long time residents are not happy about this. In addition, the long time residents know that the West Side will be the LAST to get improved transit service of any kind. They are sick and tired of being ignored by the city government. They are not necessarily against the streetcar, but they are suspicious of anything that happens in another neighborhood. The first ring suburbs are really hurting.

Thanks for posting. I'm glad you noticed the Army Corps of Engineers survey marker. Few people pay attention to those.

There IS a reason. In Cincinnati, Queen City Metro used to run a special service to Reds and Bengals games. It seems like the appropriate thing to do - to give the customers what they want. But Queen City Metro is heavily subsidized by the earnings tax, also known as the city income tax, which of course is controlled by the City of Cincinnati. The theory is that if non-city residents are paying city earnings tax, then it is appropriate for the city to provide transportation to jobs in the city. Somehow, someone got the idea that it was not appropriate to provide transportation to a private industry that will gain a profit from the riders. Is that a legitimate argument? In any case, the decision was made to provide service to games at cost, without a subsidy. So, the fare to ride Queen City Metro to a Bengals game instantly shot up to about $7.00. (As an aside, this is what a fare would cost for the bus service to break even.) Naturally, the service wasn't very popular, and ridership was so low that the service was discontinued. As someone interested in rail operations, this seems like silly bickering. However, to others it is an important issue. Ideally, yes, it should be possible to run special trains to events. But politics isn't always ideal. This is what I mean when I say that publicly funded services are influenced by politics rather than business decisions. In the old days, when streetcars were operated by private companies, ball games and other entertainment was actually advertised on the streetcars by the streetcar companies - because the streetcar companies made a profit on the fare. They even employed spotters to estimate the number of people at the games, so they could schedule enough streetcars to take them home.

"Considering that most suburbs continue to build unnecessary infrastructure..." MSD and the City of Cincinnati water works are controlled by the city, and they have a suburban expansion policy! The City of Cincinnati is directly responsible for expansion into the suburbs - and the suburbs do not have the opportunity to vote on it. Why does Cincinnati do that? True Story: A representative of water works came to a City of Cincinnati council meeting to seek approval for expansion of the water system to Blue Jay. One of the council members expressed some concern that this expansion would contribute to urban sprawl, but council approved it anyway. After the issue was approved, one of the council members asked, "By the way, where is Blue Jay?" (Blue Jay is in western Hamilton County east of Harrison.) So, don't go blaming suburban folks exclusively on sprawl. Cincinnati could spend $120 million on a streetcar to bring development back to the city, but at the same time they spend as much to drive development out. Does that make any sense? When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

"My point is there is a democratic system in place" But it's not working. Sure, as Churchhill said, it's better than some other forms of government. But democracy often acts in counter-productive ways. We have shown a few examples of how the average person doesn't understand how government works. Yet the same person is making decisions at the polls. People literally don't know about what they are voting on. We have a candidate for county commissioner right now whose platform touts himself as a "son of the suburbs" and brags that he "voted against the trolley." A City of Cincinnati councilman that is anti-city! That's democracy for you.