Eigth and State

"I'm still bullish on the American economy long-term." What is long-term to you? 20 years? 100? 1000? The U.S. economy has been growing exponentially for the last 300 years, which is of course longer than a single lifetime. No one alive can remember a time when our economy wasn't growing. But long-term exponential growth is unsustainable in a finite world. There are some who think we are reaching the peak. Population is not quite the same as the economy, but it is related. The U.S. Census projects that Ohio will peak in population in 2018, and then decline thereafter, based on current trends with regard to birth rates, death rates, immigration, and emigration. Ohio will be the fourth state to peak. This isn't necessarily bad, but it comes as a surprise to many. No one can remember a time when Ohio's population declined.

^---- In the 1970's a study recommended light rail on both the C&O corridor and the CL&N corridor. At that time, both railroads were in operation as freight railroads, but traffic was light. The study recommended duel freight and passenger use, and outlined the challenges of dual use. By about 10 years later, freight operation on both lines had ceased. In the 1990's, CSX, the owner of the C&O right of way, actually approached the City of Cincinnati, asking them if they were interested in purchasing the right of way! The City declined, and the right-of-way was sold to developers. Some segments are still intact, but a light rail line there is less and less feasible with every passing year.

You're reading too far into it. Everything you can see comes from a mixed budget, especially anything having to do with government. Health care is just as bad or worse. The GOP doesn't necessarily hate rail. They just don't like change.

"Replacing Brent Spence will not lead to any further sprawl." How can you say that when the Brent Spence is clearly the bottleneck in the system? Say I live in Walton, Kentucky and work in Cincinnati. I would rather move another 10 miles out to get away from all the traffic in my neighborhood but I am already commuting 45 minutes each way to work, of which 10 of that is sitting in traffic. So, if the Brent Spence is widened to 6 lanes each way, it will clear the bottleneck and I will save 20 minutes of commuting time per day, 10 minutes each way. I will move farther out. My commute will still be 45 minutes each way, but now I will be traveling at 70 mph instead of 30 across the bridge.

All Republicans, too. Kind of like a tax-supported political campaign in disguise. For that reason, I favor not changing things.

I was unaware that we were allowed to change.

Transportation is life, and the topic of Cincinnati Streetcars always drifts into sprawl, automobiles, history, density, and so on. What happened in the Queensgate area is that we had a slum to be cleared, an abundance of automobiles, and highway funding at the same time. To my knowledge there were no similar circumstances in Europe. European cities went through growth spurts under different conditions in different eras. European cities DO have neighborhoods that were devastated by highways, but not to the scale or extent that American cities do. Cheers. Carry on.

Somehow I associate cities with seals rather than flags. This is what I think are the most recognized symbols: Nations: Flags States: Map outline of state Counties: Picture of County Courthouse Cities: seals

"I'm not sure what you mean Europe didn't have many neighborhoods like the West End. Explain if you would." Most European cites are very old compared to American cites. London was founded as a Roman outpost camp, and that may not have even been the beginning of human habitation. By the time that Columbus landed in America, London was already old. The settlers landed in Cincinnati in 1788, and by 1840 Cincinnati was the fastest-growing city in the United States, and by 1860 the sixth-largest measured by population. The population of Cincinnat doubled in about 10 years. The best land in the Cincinnati basin - the area around Fountain Square - developed first, and then the city spread in all directions. The West End and Queensgate area wasn't the best building site, because it was swampy. Yet, development pressure was so great that the poor land was all developed, and the development was not high quality. The buildings were made of wood, crowded, and had little if any sanitation. It was home mostly to immigrants, who moved on to better housing as soon as they could afford it. The suburban movement started way back in the 1890's, depending on how you define suburban. By the 1930's, automobile use was entering the intermediate stages, people were moving into suburban houses on the periphery, and the property values of the Queensgate area was dropping. By the 1940's, most of the buildings in the Queensgate area - now wooden buildings 100 years old - were dilapidated. Planners concluded that the best treatment would be wholesale demolition and a fresh start. So, that's what they did. Since Cincinnati lacked industrial space at the time, most of Queensgate became a planned industrial park, as we would call it today. By contrast, few European cities grew so quickly, and had such a concentration of dilapidated buildings. Europe had exhausted her wood supply long ago, and had built substantial buildings of brick and stone. Furthermore, most European cities had been renewed one building at a time over the course of centuries. Finally, many European suffered bombing in WWII and didn't have to choose a place to tear down when everything changed due to the automobile. There was enough rebuilding to do as a result of the war. So, conditions in Cincinnati in the 1940's were such that America was building highways, and at the same time we had this big failed neighborhood that needed to be addressed. Planners did what they thought was right at the time. The South Bronx was another place with similar problems, as was the Cincinnati riverfront, the Buffalo riverfront, an old area of Boston, and many other places. To my knowledge, there were no areas like this in Europe, at least to that scale. If you know of one, please share.

^---"The number of singles shouldn't matter" Rankings are based on percentages of the population. What they are saying is that Columbus has a small percentage of singles, and Cincinnati has a high percentage of married people. I don't know what that's supposed to tell you. The Emotional Health is interesting; all of Ohio ranked low.

In Cincinnati, city planners advocated getting rid of streetcars to make more room for automobiles as early as the 1920's. By the time of the interstate highways, buses were considered a temporary necessity until everyone had a car. Imagine if you could talk to one of those planners today and tell him that in 2010 there are still 30,000 people riding the bus everyday!

Not only did automobiles compete for passengers, but automobiles also competed for space in city streets. Streetcars didn't have a chance in a world of automobiles. This is another aspect to the Over-the-Rhine loop. There is room on the streets for streetcars NOW. If all of the promised development happens, there will be a lot more automobiles on the streets in Over-the-Rhine.

On the other hand, Europe didn't have places like the West End either. We can't change what happened in the past. People at the time thought it would be a good idea to ram highways through American inner cities. Comparisons between the United States and Europe are interesting, but they don't change the fact that in 2010 we have one landscape, and Europe has another. The best we can do is start with what we have and make it better. The trouble with new rail in Cincinnati is that the scale of any new system is so small that connections will be limited; on the other hand, a large comprehensive rail plan is too big to be workable. As an analogy, imagine that there were no telephones, and you were advocating construction of a telephone system. The value of a telephone is increased because everyone has one; if you were the only one with a telephone, it would be worthless. Our present telephone system took over a hundred years to develop. Cell phones could only become established because they were preceded by land lines. Europe can build new rail because they already have existing rail. We really don't have a starting point. The only thing we have are some pre-war neighborhoods, but the major parts of our economy have moved to the suburbs long ago. What if I want to go to Walmart to buy a new TV? There are no Wal-marts in Over-the-Rhine. In fact, there is very little reason for me to go to Over-the-Rhine. Even when the streetcars were still operating, city dwellers were driving to the suburbs for their shopping.

I was only in Europe for a short time but this is what I observed: 1. Europe has more developed rail system than we do. 2. Europe has a less developed highway system than we do. 3. All the bad things about American cities also exist in Europe. However, the scale is larger in America. For example, we have suburban supermarkets with big parking lots, and so does Europe, but our parking lots are bigger than those in Europe.

FWW in Cincinnati was originally called the Thrid Street Distributor. As the name implies, it's purpose was to distribute traffic from the interstates to downtown streets. It was not intended as a major regional connector, but that's what it became. The designers who rebuilt Fort Washinton Way realized it's function and made changes accordingly. Pre-interstate planning basicly allowed for radial routes out of downtown. No one ever imagined that drivers would commute from Florence to West Chester.

I used to be an fan of large-scale, comprehensive plans, but the more I learn, the more I see that so many of them are failures.

Metro moves was just too big. It wasn't a workable plan. In my humble opinion, the Over-the-Rhine loop was a workable plan. When City Council approved the Over-the-Rhine loop with an extention to U.C., they made the plan unworkable and effectively reduced the chances that the project will be built.

Has Cincinnati started multi-year environmental assessments or preliminary engineering?

^Oh come on - the recipients of those grants are going to apply for more money for extensions. Talk about trying to find some good news!

"The pinnacle of the American dream has long been home ownership, complete with the white picket fence. Generation Y is helping to redefine that aspect of the American dream." I agree with C-Dawg that they sugercoat it by saying "redifine that aspect of the American dream" when they also could have said "They're too broke to buy a house." There's an awful lot of people in the 18-24 age range that are living with their parents. Are they redifining the American dream too?

Ok, please allow me to re-phrase this. Cincinnati's street layout was not directly copied off of Philidelphia. What was copied was a rational, rectangular grid system of blocks and lots in a general way, as opposed to a random system that grew organically. Philidelphia was not the first city to use a grid system, but it is notable for the fact that it was laid out to a high degree of precision, and it was much larger than it needed to be at the time that it was laid out. In fact, it took nearly 100 years for all of the lots in Philidelphia to be developed. The fact that Philidelphia was so large so early influenced a lot of other American cities.

Yes, there has been discussion about expanding use of the other yards, especially Sharon Yard. The drawback of Sharon Yard is that two routes come together at the south end of the yard, whereas they need them to come together at the north end. They have to assemble trains in Queensgate in order to use either branch. There was talk about construction of a new track north of Sharon Yard, but apparently nothing came of it.

HA! Back in 2002 or thereabouts I was playing around with light rail alignments and came up with the same one that Jake just presented, with a diagonal line across U.C. connecting to the subway at Mohawk. If my geocities site was still online I'd show you. Deep stations are problematic for a number of reasons. It can be done, but at a price. I have always been in favor of a station right in the middle of U.C., not on the periphery along Jefferson or one of the other streets. U.C. is a large campus, surrounded by four somewhat pedestrian-unfriendly highways. A station right in the middle of campus would allow for the shortest walking path for the most people. U.C. at one time was talking about a system connecting the east and west campuses along the diagonal alignment with just two stops.

^---"Cincinnati had to be one of the first cities to impose an urban grid across river topography" Sorry, Cincinnati's street grid is modeled after Philidelphia's. Oxford, Ohio was modeled after Philidelphia to the point of having the same street names (Some of the names have since changed.) For what it's worth the Cincinnati skywalk concept was copied by a lot of other cities.

CUT is a bit far from downtown, but it has one tremendous advantage: it is a well known location with visibility from I-75 that just about everyone has been to thanks to the Museum Center. The station itself is more than adequate, and there is plenty of room for services and amenities. However, in my humble opinion it is unrealistic to talk about passenger service to CUT given the congestion problem. Those 3 tracks are busy busy busy!