Eigth and State

"This creates jobs, this creates entertainment, this creates opportunity..." I'm not really so sure about that. Gambling redistributes money, but does not create new wealth.

Don't forget about the Ohio River, Winton Lake, Sharon Lake, the ponds at Eden Park, and Swan Lake at the zoo. Cincinnati has lots of water to be thankful for. There used to be a Lagoon at Ludlow, Kentucky. That would have been neat to see. You can see the site from Mt. Echo park.

Some of the stuff that I have read seems to indicate that Americans have been getting poorer since 1970. Sure, we have more electronic gadgets, but there's more to life than those.

In the 1990's they said that U.C. had 20,000 commuters, including faculty and staff.

Oh dear. This is a big deal.

Cincinnati missed an opportunity with Central Parkway. If the buildings had all been rebuilt with a consistent height and elevation one either side of Central Parkway, it would have resembled a Parisian boulevard. Imagine if the Alms and Doepke building was reproduced all the way down Central Parkway. What happened in fact was even worse. Some of the existing buildings were torn down for parking lots. Old phots from 1940 show a Central Parkway that is more attractive than what we have today. Like Jake said, a shallow pool down the center might look good if done well. A deep canal is probably out of the question. The Mill Creek is problematic due to flood issues and sewers. The 1920 Cincinnati Plan recommended improving the Mill Creek to look like a European river. Water features are important to cities. We have some pools at Eden Park, Winton Lake, Sharon Lake, and others. Right on Vine Street in Inwood Park is a really nice pond that can be used for ice skating in winter but hardly anyone knows about it, and it is practically abandoned. Maybe if the streetcar was built on Vine Street, Inwood Park would be more popular.

The Ohio Lottery is another form of gambling. Do you suppose the casinos will displace lottery revenue? The legislation above looks like a lot of thought went into redistribution of tax revenue. 50% of the money allocated to the county will go to the largest city in the county, if it had over 80,000 people in the 2000 census, blah blah blah. I don't know enough about it to figure out who the winners and losers are, but to me it looks like a game of diverting tax revenue from one jurisdiction to another.

"This is the zero-sum argument." This argument also applies to jobs and taxes. If activity is displaced away from other forms of entertainment, the jobs and taxes go with it.

About 1990 the Indiana and Ohio Railroad tried to rebuild a 3 mile length of the former CL&N between Brecon and Mason, in northern Hamilton County and southern Butler County. This would have rejoined two segments of the railroad, allowing a continuous segment between Norwood and Lebanon, and allowed the Indiana and Ohio Railroad to consolidate their operations in one place. Construction would have been as simple as laying track. Everything else was already in place. There was no tax money involved. The feds turned it down based on complaints by neighbors. This was NIMBY at its worst. So, railroads must take complaints by neighbors seriously.

For the record, I saw the train yesterday about 12:30 crossing Gest Street at grade. I am sure it didn't go very far north, as the track in that area is completely covered in weeds by the time it gets to the Western Hills Viaduct. I see a handful of trains per year on that line. Question: is there any reason why the 3-C line should connect with the Amtrak Cardinal? Is there a lot of transfer traffic expected? Yes, ideally all of the passenger rail systems should be connected, but you can't have everything you want. Terminating the 3-C line in Sharonville will certainly save a lot of up-front cost, and it allows for a second Cincinnati-area station near downtown Cincinnati in the future.

I don't know how many young people are actually moving out of state, but my point was that this age group may be losing population simply because of demographic trends related to birth and death rates. I had friends that moved out of Ohio, but I also know people who have move TO Ohio. Ohio's immigration and emigration numbers are really not all that big compared to births and deaths. The perception is that they are moving out of state. I don't know if it's true or not.

Other than the WWII years, passenger traffic at CUT has been a disappointment. Even when CUT opened, people joked that one should drive down to see the new railroad station. Amtrak uses it today, but it gets hardly any traffic.

The trouble with bringing passenger trains to Cincinnati Union Terminal is not just with the station, but with bottlenecks at both ends of the yard. Go watch the trains at the Spring Grove Avenue bridge, for example. There are three main lines there, and sometimes all three of them have slow-moving freight trains on them. This section of three parallel tracks continues all the way to Winton Place, where more connections enter the mix. The Mill Creek Valley is a congested corridor, plain and simple. I like Jake's idea of using the line on the west side of the Mill Creek. It bypasses Union Terminal, but lines up nicely with the transit center. There is only one railroad crossing near river road - I think they call it the "Oklahoma" track. A connection across the Mill Creek would be necessary - there used to be a bridge. Or, if you want to dream, the old right of way through Northside and Spring Grove Cemetery could be reopened. A underpass under I-74 would need to be rebuilt. I saw a train on that line on the west side of the Mill Creek yesterday. That line used to be the B&O main line from Cincinnati to Toledo. It was originally the Cincinnati, Hamilton, and Dayton, the second railroad to reach Cincinnati. Today it's called the Cincinnati Industrial Track. Today it is used infrequently. The train I saw had a locomotive, two freight cars, and a caboose.

"It worked when the facility first opened.." What transit do you speak of? Cincinnati Union Terminal was designed for taxis, buses, and streetcars. The streetcars were never built, thoough. In the museum center, you can see the signs for the taxis and buses. A similar sign for streetcars was never installed. Interestingly, the streetcar ramp was the very first part of the passenger station to be built.

Terminating the 3-C in Sharonville is one of the best ideas I've read on this thread, in my humble opinion. If a connection to Downtown Cincinnati were ever made, the Sharonville stop could still remain as a proper stop in it's own right. Sharonville has a rather nice but small "historic" downtown. Too bad more of Sharonville isn't walkable.

"A new technology will eventually be mass produced so that it phases in a replacement for the gasoline engine." The gasoline engine is tough to beat. I won't say it won't happen, but given the fact that folks have been trying for 100 years, I have my doubts. Anything without the properties of a standard car is not really a replacement.

"I never said a switch would be simple, just that it would be easier and more efficient than relocating the hundreds of millions of people that live in a place that requires a vehicle to live a standard life." How do you know what will be easier in the future? Or, what makes you think that they need to be relocated?

Here's some more Census data: United States Census http://www.census.gov/population/projections/SummaryTabA1.pdf Ohio Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2008 1.2% USA Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2008 8.0% Ohio is increasing in population, but not as fast as other states. We aren't actually losing people - yet! Ohio population projection 2000 11,353,140 2005 11,477,557 2010 11,576,181 2015 11,635,446 2020 11,644,058 2025 11,605,738 2030 11,550,528 Projections show that Ohio is going to peak in population within 15 years. (The actual peak date is 2018, which I found from another source.) So, who will populate our cities if there are no young people? No one! That is not a joke. That is reality. And before you tell me you think that the U.S. Census methodology is wrong, I'd like to see your own projection. But here is the most telling part: Ohio population by age, 2000 Census: Under 5 years 754,930 6.6 % 5 to 9 years 816,346 7.2% 10 to 14 years 827,811 7.3% 15 to 19 years 816,868 7.2% 20 to 24 years 728,928 6.4% 25 to 34 years 1,519,894 13.4% 35 to 44 years 1,805,316 15.9% 45 to 54 years 1,566,384 13.8% 55 to 59 years 553,174 4.9% 60 to 64 years 455,732 4.0% 65 to 74 years 790,252 7.0% 75 to 84 years 540,709 4.8% 85 years and over 176,796 1.6% For some reason, this list didn't use uniform age intervals, so I am going to split the 25-34 group evenly, 795947 each. Thus we have in the year 2000: 15-19 816868 20-24 728928 25-30 795947 Advancing to 2005, assuming no migration 20-24 816868 25-30 728928 30-35 795947 Or, put another way, the 25-30 group is doing this: 2000 795947 2005 728928 Decrease 67019 -8% Granted, this doesn't count young people who joined the military and came back 4 years later, people who died, immigration and emigration and other factors, but it does show that Ohio could be losing people in the 25-30 age group (the "Young Professionals") for no other reason than that they are aging and not being replaced. C-Dawg's post above shows that Ohio is really not doing bad by percentage of people with degrees. But we are taking a percentage of a smaller number! But take heart. The 25-30 group will increase again in 2015! :-) And then drop beyond that. :|

Sorry, I was away from the internet. Yes, it is a sewer tunnel for Sanitation District 1 of Northern Kentucky. This is the largest capital project that SD1 has ever had. It is designed to serve new development in Boone County. The portal is near Petersburg, Kentucky and if all goes well the boring machine will come out near Camp Ernst Road six miles east of there.

I've got some photos of a new Cincinnati area tunnel under construction. This is approximately the same geology of a possible deep tunnel from Over-the-Rhine to the U.C. area. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20751.0.html

This is a conventional tunnel in shale, lined with steel rings and wood lagging. Construction is projected to take 3 years and cost $100 million. If all goes well, the finished tunnel will be six miles long and will host a ten foot diameter reinforced concrete pipe. 1. <br> 2. This shaft is about 50 feet in diameter and 50 feet deep. <br> 3. The tunnel boring machine is 12 feet in diameter. The machine was built in 1970. <br> 4. Portal <br> 5. Narrow gauge railroad <br> 6. Mine cars <br> 7. Construction site <br> 8. Surrounding area <br> Edit by Sherman Cahal: Edited title.

My Pick: High speed rail West Coast line San Diego, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver Texas triangle: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio Florida: Miami, Orlando, Tampa East Coast: Boston New York Philidelphia Washington Newport News Chicago Hub - radial lines to Minneanapolis, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and others Empire Route: Cleveland, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, New York City not included: Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Denver, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Dayton, Columbus.

"Who will populate our cities down the road if it isn't the young people of today?" No one. Duh. :roll:

"That would require a Mill Creek cruise in a canoe!" Been there. Done that.

Vehicle-miles are in fact decreasing! source: Federal Highway Administration http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/vm_202.xls Total Vehicle Miles Traveled on Interstate Highways: 1980 135,084 1981 139,304 1982 142,546 1983 145,250 1984 149,139 1985 154,357 1986 159,498 1987 170,493 1988 181,315 1989 191,085 1990 200,173 1991 205,011 1992 205,557 1993 208,308 1994 215,568 1995 223,382 1996 232,565 1997 240,255 1998 251,520 1999 260,166 2000 268,180 2001 273,619 2002 280,609 2003 269,650 2004 266,245 2005 256,642 2006 257,915 2007 256,438 Total vehicle miles traveled on Interstate Highways peaked in 2002. Vehicle miles nearly doubled between 1980 and 2000, and have declined 9% from 2000 to 2007. Total vehicle miles on all roads follow the same trend.