Eigth and State

There's a difference between getting farmers out of the mud and building motorways for commuters. The first phase of road construction lasted until, say, 1930. A lot of primitive roads were graded and paved, and were usable during the entire year. Then, motorways were built for high speed and to carry a lot of volume. This was effective to a point, but when motorways started to get more than two lanes wide in each direction, things got out of hand. Hamilton County, Ohio, has more miles of paved roads today than the entire country had in 1900.

Just wondering, There are 80,000 jobs downtown. How many of them pay less than $20,000 per year?

Downtown Cincinnati had a tornado in 1915.

Modern techniques do, in fact, recover a greater proportion of the petroleum. Two different drillers could recover different amounts from the same well. Some abandoned wells have become producers again. These techniques have been accounted for in peak oil, however.

Brookville is a great example of a main street town whose main street is still important. There is no easy way to drive around Brookville.

What happened to all the books? Or better yet, what is going to happen to all the books?

Nippert isn't surrounded by a sea of parking lots.

It's the Herman Schnieder memorial quadrangle. Hermain Schnieder started the first co-op program in the United States at U.C. in 1909, if I remember correctly. There used to be a monment including a stone park bench overlooking the quad and a solar clock. I haven't been there recently, but I think the monument and bench has been removed. The solar clock was moved to another location near Baldwin Hall; not only did they put it in the shade so it can't be used in the morning hours, but they also failed to orient it in the correct direction so now it doesn't give the correct time. I don't know if it's still there or not. I got a call from a student who was hired to solicit donations. She asked, "Have you seen all the new work at the U.C. Campus that was completed in the last few years?" I said, "Yes, and I liked it better the way it was before."

It it were me, I would just stay out of it. It's not your fault if someone else's kid dies.

Then build it then! I don't know, maybe the optimism on this board is just too much for me. John, thanks for all your time. Randy, keep smilin'. :laugh:

The City Manager and City Council don't have absolute authority. City traffic engineers are subject to state law as well as working for the city manager. Plus, the City of Cincinnati in particular has a reputation for doing things their way, and they do not like to experiment with new things. Getting things done in the City is much harder than it needs to be. Portland has a reputation for experimentation. And yes, traffic engineers typically favor cars. Signals are timed for cars first, pedestrians second. It doesn't have to be that way. They say that engineering is a big ship: it does not turn quickly. I had the pleasure to visit a foreign country where the infrastructure was designed for people first and cars second. What a world of difference! They had an excellent rail transit system, too.

"So far, city of Cincinnati traffic engineers have not agreed..." This is the kind of thing that bothers me. Clearly, the streetcar does not yet have full support of the City.

Why does Vine Street take longer? Because of traffic? Certainly I hope that the streetcar project would make adjustments to the traffic control. I don't want my streetcar to have to stop for any traffic light. I don't want it to stop for any other reason than to load or unload passengers. I have read that in some other rail projects, a large amount of the money was used for streetscape and traffic improvements which is then counted as "track". That's why it cost $26 million a mile for streetcar track; the track itself doesn't cost that much. $26 million a mile is about $5000 per foot! Certainly no one thinks we are just going to lay rail in the street and be done with it? Minimizing track length minimizes construction cost, which in turn gives the project a better chance of being built. If the numerator is ridership and the denominator is cost, then either number will influence the ratio. I total see where you are coming from with your route up Gilbert. I'm not really disagreeing, I'm just saying I haven't seen a fair comparison, with numbers. Ideally, we could draw as many routes as we want to. Then, using some traffic demand model, we could estimate the ridership as well as the cost, and from those calculate the rate of return. We can make any assumption we want about development, gas prices, etc., but the assumptions should be consistent between alternatives. Without seeing any numbers, my feeling is that the Vine Street route, option "B" as Randy calls it, is going to have a strong showing, in large part due to the shorter route between two activity centers and lack of 90 degree bends. Some of the "short lines" that I mentioned may do well also. Thanks for reading. And Gin - the route isn't set in stone. Nowadays they use concrete, but in the old days they literally set the routes in stone. :-D We are a long way from having a real plan yet, and by plan I mean construction drawings. At this point, it's not much more than a line on a map.

^--- I'm surprised to hear such unkind words. You are correct that the development potential is less on Vine Street, but do you not also agree that the cost to construct and operate will also be less than other routes? And, do you agree that a shorter travel time will attract more riders? All of the factors need to be taken into account when choosing between alternative.

Does every foot of track have to have development potential? Obviously, we want to maximize development potential, but we have to choose between viable alternatives. This route on Vine street optimizes travel time. Compare an express bus route such as the 74 to a corridor route such as the 3 (If I remember right.) The 74 carries suburban commuters from a park and ride to downtown. You could say it acts like a parking shuttle. As many as 30 people get on at one stop, and 30 people get off at one stop. The ride is fast and pleasant; that's why the "choice" riders use it. The 3 stops every block for miles. One person gets on, and one gets off. It is slow and unpleasant. The "choice" riders don't use it. But all miles are revenue miles. I think that the "choice" riders will tolerate 10 stops. Any more, and it will be easier to drive. From the rider's point of view, miles do not matter as much as minutes. From an operation point of view, driver salary is a large part of operation cost; again, minutes matter more than miles. Only for the track maintenance guys do miles really matter. If we assume consistent numbers for ridership, track costs, etc, we can evaluate alternatives by the numbers. I can't say whether Vine Street is the best route, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is.

It is going to take at least a year to design the streetcar, and as much as another year to build it. The 2010 opening date will not be met. At the very least, the cost estimate needs to be adjusted for inflation.

No, and I am sorry if I come across as too negative. I don't mean to. I want Over-the-Rhine to be successful.

Maybe true, but the U.C. line has a better chance of getting built if it has more support. I keep saying that a plan without a source of funding is just a dream. The Over-the-Rhine loop has already suffered a serious setback: the feasibility study called for it to open in 2010, which it clearly will not. It doesn't matter what any study says if there is no funding. Any line can be more or less successful than anticipated. But only a line with funding will be built. It is my opinion that the U.C. line has a chance of being built. It may or may not be successful. But it is my opinion that the Over-the-Rhine loop has a small chance of being built. Does that make sense?

Before Fort Washington Way was reconstructed, a traffic study showed that there was a lot of traffic between Covington and Newport via Fort Washington Way on the Ohio side. A new route across the Licking River would certainly be well used. A streetcar or other transit route somewhere along the riverfront between Covington and Newport would have no automobile competition and would certainly attract a lot of riders! A new bridge over the Licking is going to be a tough point. The bridge would need navigational clearance over the Licking River and would necessarily be fairly high.

The internal cirulation at Univeristy Hospital lends itself to a station north of M.L.K., not at the corner of M.L.K and Jefferson. The route picks up the southwest entrance to the Zoo, which happens to be the traditional entrance based on transit. Also, if I am not mistaken, streetcars traditionally made a loop on Vine Street at the zoo. There still exists room to turn around there.

Well, I contend that they ARE a big deal. Keep in mind that we would prefer to disturb existing traffic patterns as little as possible, we want to avoid collisions with automobiles, and we want to simplify trackwork as well as overhead wire work. Curves require a lot more wire work than straight sections, so curves are a disproportionately expensive part of the alignment. Plus, streetcars can squeal on curves. I heard it myself in Germany.

1 mile of track and 10 bends are pretty significant.

I like option B much better. Option A has 10 - count 'em, 10! - more sharp angle turns of about 90 degrees. The track length may not be much different, but the turns are going to be problematic and significantly affect construction and operation. It's a shame that this route wasn't anticipated in the design of the riverfront area. The Walnut/Main couplet could have terminated in a half circle to facilitate the streetcar turning around. The way that Mehring Way connects I do not quite understand.

Of the several possible routes, the shortest route from uptown to downtown is likely NOT going to go near Findley Market, which is the part of Over-the-Rhine in worst shape and has most of the "development opportunity."

Sorry, I forgot the source. Here it is: http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_por-stc-data-01.htm