Eigth and State

Thanks for the photos. Dan, I am not a regular poster on your site but have been following it for years. Thanks for all the hard work.

Cumminville was named after an early settler. Cumminsville was its own corporation before being annexed by the City of Cincinnati. The Cincinnati, Hamilton, and Dayton Railroad (Not I-74) bisected Cumminsville, splitting it into North and South Cumminsville. North Cumminsville became known as Northside, short for "North side of the tracks," and South Cumminsville remains South Cumminsville. The railroad has been abandoned, and I-74 has become the practical, if not official, boundary. My grandfather still called it "Cumminsville" until his death at age 90 in 2002. He grew up in what is now called "South Cumminsville."

^---Well, I was wrong. I guess the tunnel is still open for discussion.

"I'd rather have a bus that runs frequently and is overcrowded than runs once every half hour to an hour and is dead." To each his own. Why settle for less? I would rather have a bus that runs frequently AND is not crowded. I can think of two ways to make this happen, both with beneficial consequences. 1. Charge higher fares. This will turn people away from the bus, making it less crowded. If it's done correctly, the system will not lose money. 2. Increase running speed. This could be done by eliminating some stops, modifying intersection design to allow buses to pass through without stopping, increasing maximum speed, or decreasing loading and unloading times. Faster running speed allows the same number of buses to make more round trips per day, effectively decreasing the headway time.

^---"It's a non-starter." I disagree. The CL&N is at least worth consideration, especially between Cincinnati and Norwood. It has been recommended in numerous studies going back to 1975. It is mostly intact (I walked it) on the ground if not on paper. It is owned in part by Queen City Metro. It enters downtown at Broadway Commons, which is of course filled with parking lots, allowing fairly simple construction. It has a maximum grade of 4%. Granted, the section through the Baldwin Piano factory is built over, and the line is no longer intact through Norwood. I'm not proposing anything north of Norwood. I will grant you that it does not go near U.C. It is, however, parallel to major corridors: I-71, Reading Road, Gilbert, etc. An awful lot of Metro buses presently use those corridors. What is the advantage? Easy construction, plain and simple, and easy maintenance too for that matter. No heavy grades. No major new tunnels. No new interstate crossing. No sharp curves. Few street crossing, and the ones that exist were historically street crossings on low traffic streets. Few if any utility relocations. Most of the track could be built as open track, which is to say, a track not in a street, which is much, much less expensive. A light rail vehicle could perhaps travel from Norwood to Downtown at 50 mph. High speed equates to fewer vehicles required and fewer drivers, not to mention faster commute times. A future connection could be the existing Hyde Park line to Mariemont. A future branch line to U.C. should be no more difficult than one up Vine Street, although the distance would be longer. (A former line branched toward University Hospital; I wonder if it is useable?) An extension across the L&N bridge to Newport on the Levee and up Saratoga Street would be possible. There are ample vacant industrial sites along the line for a maintenance facility. Being in a private right of way (outside of the street), high-platform vehicles could be considered, elimating all hassles associated with steps and ADA, making it more comfortable for everyone, allowing easier vehicle maintenance, and a slightly higher capacity. Stepped vehicles could be added later if extentions go into the street. Acquire a diesel light rail vehicle or two and save the cost of catenary, at least at first. Reroute some Metro buses to stop at the northern terminus for transfer. Or, even pave it for buses only and reroute all Metro express buses from the other corridors (This has been proposed by OKI in the past.) Although it may not pass next to U.C., it still has an impressive list of potential stops: Xavier University (via a departure from the CL&N over a different line), McMicken Avenue, the Baldwin complex, Bethesda Hospital, Proctor and Gamble downtown. All of this talk about routes is a compromise between least cost to build and least cost to use. The CL&N between downtown Cincinnati and Norwood would give us the most track for the money. The lower the initial cost, the more likely that funding will be found. Build it today and see what happens. Or, spend the next 20 years studying the Mt. Auburn tunnel or the Uptown Connector without building anything.

It's been a while, but I used to ride the 17 in Cincinnati between Northside and Uptown and I had to fight like a pig to get off the bus. At that level of congestion, the system breaks down because the buses waste so much time loading and unloading at stops.

^---- Double tracked? Technically, yes, but with conditions. The Cincinnati, Lebanon, and Northern Railroad was originally a narrow-gauge railroad between its namesake cities. Narrow gauge is 3 feet between the rails; standard gauge is 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches. Narrow gauge locomotives and rolling stock are also, as expected, more narrow than standard equipment. There is a major tunnel and one smaller underpass that were sized for the narrow guage railroad, with double track. When the CL&N became part of the Pennsylvania system, it was converted to standard guage. However, the tunnel and underpass were too narrow, and there was an accident involving two locomotives sideswiping each other in the tunnel. The track in the tunnel was then converted to gauntlet track, an unusual arrangement where the two tracks were laid so close to each other that they actually overlapped. Only one train could use the tunnel at a time. So, could light rail use the tunnel with double track? I don't know, but it is definitely an issue. Maybe two light rail vehicles can pass safely, or maybe only one could pass at a time, or maybe a route could be chosen that only uses single track in the tunnel and the return train takes a different route, or maybe the tunnel could be widened or daylighted. It would seem that the simplest way would be to build single track in the tunnel area and allow one train at a time, controlled by signals. The tunnel could be widened or daylighted in the future, if traffic warrants it. By the way, Queen City Metro owns most of the CL&N right of way. The maximum grade is 4%, which caused trouble when it was a steam line but is well within the limits of light rail. In the 1975 Exclusive Guideway plan, the CL&N right of way was chosen for a route between Cincinnati and Norwood. At that time, it was still in operation under the Pennsylvania system. The CL&N right of way is still in operation in two sections north of Norwood under the Indiana and Ohio railroad.

823 York Street is a 2 story brick building in the West End neighborhood of Cincinnati. According the the Hamilton County Auditor, it was built in 1865. Records back to 1938 do not indicate any Dotzauers. 4545 Langland is a 2 and one half story house in the Cincinnati neighborhood of Northside. According to the Hamilton County Auditor, it was owned by Mary Dotzauer in 1938. The property was transferred to Andrew J. Dotzauer on 3-18-1938. It was transferred to Marie F Hettrick, Alma W Hettrick, and Andrew F Dotzauer on 2-3-1940. It was transferred to Ignatz and Susanna Romer on 12-3-1941.

^---- Things like this can make a pretty big difference. Planner types like Urban Ohio folks talk about routes, grades, headway times, and so on, but for how many people is driving an automobile the more attractive option because it allows them to eat, drink, smoke, and play the radio?

I used to also play CeasarII, which was based on a Roman city. You had to build a water supply, sanitation, and preferably, a wall.

Where are the parking lots? Just kidding. I enjoyed SimCity when I used to play it.

^--- Either of those two routes are too steep. In fact, right between those two routes was the Bellevue Incline. Also, a major landslide occured there in the 1970's.

Anyone notice that the RFQ included a request not only to design, build, and operate the system, but also to present a funding plan? That's the hardest part. I want streetcars as much as the rest of you, but I'm skeptical. A plan without funding is just a dream.

^--- That Mill Creek Deep Tunnel concept has fallen out of favor.

What is the price and availability of housing between Norwood and Sharonville along the Reading Road Corridor? Looking to rent a smallish apartment as cheaply as possible, but not a crack house in Bond Hill, Reading, Lockland, Evendale or Sharonville or thereabouts, preferably closer to Sharonville.

Reality doesn't have to be pessimistic. In 300 years, we are likely to have fewer sources of industrial power available to us. That doesn't neccesarily mean that life will be worse than it is now, and it may not come as a sudden collapse. Also, solar energy is by far the largest source of energy, but it is not the largest source of INDUSTRIAL power. The best use of solar energy is to grow things. It is possible, but difficult, to use solar energy to power cars, power trains, refine steel, etc. "Natural resources have not become scarcer over time" Timber for shipbuilding? Silver nitrate for camera film? Light sweet crude petroleum for gasoline? Ivory for piano keys? Teak for ship decks? Rhinocerous horns for medicine? Anthracite coal? Buffalo for meat (In Ohio!)?

^--- Docking any boat on the Central Riverfront is problematic, because it would interfere with the navigation channel.

^----"I don't want to turn this into another doomsday thread. Lets be positive!" I'm not turning this into a doomsday thread. I am simply trying to steer it toward reality. Neither am I trying to look into a crystal ball. I didn't say that life would be worse, just very, very different. It is fair to say that, as a global civilization, we will have LESS industrial energy available to us in 300 year than we will today. That is not to say that there won't be any cars, or elevators, but that there will be FEWER of them, if any. We all know the history of how railroads and then motorways shaped our cities. What I expect is that those transportation routes will become LESS important, not more important. And how will we operate skyscrapers without elevators? Before elevators, most buildings were limited to about 6 stories based on climbing of staircases alone. Tall buildings are a recent invention, and they depend on electricity, which often comes from coal. But does the lack of industrial energy mean that we are going to be blasted back to the year 1700? Not necessarily. Certainly we have technology not available in 1700, and new discoveries are yet to be made. Time does not travel backward. At one time, I thought Cincinnati would have a population of 10 million in 300 years, and New York would have 100 million. Everything has been getting bigger, so why should that trend stop? That was before I understood the limits of natural resources. If I were to guess, I would say that cities will become SMALLER. This does not necessarily mean that life will become worse. My guesses for the long term are: Cars, trains, and airplanes, become extinct, or nearly so. World population declines to less than a billion. Global trade is scaled down. Skyscrapers are no longer viable. Transportation within cities is primarily by walking. Transportation between cities is slow. The industrial revolution is a one-time event. When coal, petroleum, and natural gas are depleted, the event is over. Again, the wild card is nuclear fusion.

You are not taking into account AMOUNTS of potential energy. We do NOT have capacity to replace current hydrocarbon energy supplies with other sources of energy, Nuclear Fusion being a possible exception. The AMOUNTS of coal, petroleum, and natural gas that we are currently using for industrial power are so overwhelmingly large that solar, wind, biomass, etc, simply cannot replace them. Of course solar energy can be channeled into a power grid. The question is, can you do it on an industrial scale and come out ahead? The answer is, at this time you can not. Solar energy is not free. You have to build the collector. At this time, it costs more to build the collector than it does to buy an equivalent amount of energy in coal. Switching from coal to solar energy as a source of industrial power is a step down, not a step up. That is not to say that solar energy is not valid for certain applications, but solar energy cannot replace coal for our industrial power.

Conventional, gasoline-powered cars are likely to be extinct or nearly extinct in 100 years for lack of fuel. Same with aircraft and helicoptors. Electric cars and trains may operate for a while, but in the long term, say 300 years, even those will be obsolete for lack of fuel. Same with refrigerators, televisions, elevators, and anything you can think of that requires power. What this will do for cities is unimaginable.

Please see the Peak Oil forum if you haven't already. In the long term, say 100 to 300 years, our supply of hydrocarbon fuels, namely petroleum, coal, and natural gas, are likely to be substantially depleted. What happens then is anyone's guess, but I'd say you can forget about your flying cars.

Mt Storm was only one of Clifton's estates. Some of the buildings still exist, but are surrounded by infill development. Can you imagine what Clifton must have looked like when it consisted of grand homes in 100 acre estates?

Cheviot is still an independent municipality. Though it is connected to Cincinnati, it functions more like an independent small town than do other places near Cincinnati. It is the traditional capital of the west side, although it is losing that status with development associated with I-74. Ya gotta vote for Steve Chabot. Its a west side tradition. He shows up at the Elder games. The Rybolt exit area is full of newcomers from the Tri-county area, who commute by I-275. They aren't traditional west-siders.

"I've been out of the inside loop" :-D

Rumpke offers a recycling program in Colerain Township. In addition, Colerain Township has an annual cleanup day to collect all kinds of trash including household hazardous waste, oil, appliances, furniture, and so on. They actually collect broken lawnmowers and things and scrap them for materials. It's a very well-run operation.