Cleburger

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower. As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me? It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc. I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea. Why not give it a separate entrance? But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on. An what would adding just a "separate" entrance do? How is that beneficial to the condo owners? I'm asking certain questions, in a certain way, so that you think of this from a BUYERS and DEVELOPERS perspective. Sorry MTS. Not sure I'm following you here. If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

Very true. But if you look upthread, my reason for bringing disposable income into the thread was a question of why major concert acts are passing by Cincinnati. If given only so many routing options in a given time period, the promoter is going to go with the proven winner. In this case, Columbus with its student population, government jobs and competing arenas is winning out.

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower. As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me? It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc. I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea. Why not give it a separate entrance? But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on.

This is huge. You want lakefront developement? Start with what we already have and clean up the years of neglect. Connect it to a neighborhood through the redesigned Shoreway. Then you have momentum to let it spread to the east.

Students aside, Columbus has an additional leg up on Cincinnati. A large workforce of government employees who worry less about stability. State capitols always have this advantage when considering entertainment dollars available in a market.

I can think of 65,000 reasons just on campus at OSU alone. CLeburger - College kids do not have much disposable income. Student loans don't count as real disposable income. Besides UC and NKU combined have that many students, so what's your point Sure they do! It's spent on credit cards or mom & dad's money, using student discounts for tickets. The Schottenstein does a great job selling tickets with the arena on campus. They may not have a lot of money, but the little they do they consider disposable...

I can think of 65,000 reasons just on campus at OSU alone.

Columbus gets more arena acts because there is more disposable income in the market, and they have two competing arenas to keep the rent down. Sure a nicer arena helps, but up until a few years ago acts were still flowing through arenas like Mellon in Pittsburgh, which was WAY worse than US Bank in Cinci.

I'd like to find specific examples of concerts that have passed on Cincinnati solely based on the arena condition. If there's money to be made, they will play there. And being privately owned by Nederlander, they are in a much better negotiating position on rent. Furthermore, I'd like to see his list of conventions that have passed. Other than the RNC, there aren't many conventions booking arena sized spaces. We have the Q in Cleveland which only sees a couple of convention bookings, and those are simply spin-off events from the main convention at the convention center.

And with a name like treesketcher, you know that's the truth. :angel:

Sorry I should have been more specific in my sarcasm. I had just read the weekly Plain Dealer bashing of the sewer district. But I suppose (in the pragmatic non-derogatory sense) declining population does affect tax revenues, water department collections, etc.

Aging system, declining population, and of course, that section was a part that was elevated above the I90, so we can also blame ODOT. ;)

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

I see this differently--for a number of reasons: 1. To begin with, the economy of scale is all wrong. There is nothing that Fedex ships that would make any sense putting on a boat, or vice versa. In addition, I don't think the runways at BKL are long/strong enough to support the occasional Fedex or UPS Heavy that lands at Hopkins. 2. The current goods coming in on boats is not warehousing material. It is steel coils and bulk goods--so logistics chain businesses have no interest in boats, unless you can convince an operator to send small container ships through the St Lawrence? So far this hasn't happened on the Great Lakes in any large quantities--so my guess is this would take a more coordinated effort than just Cleveland alone deciding to become a container port. 3. The area at the mouth of the river you speak of (between the mouth and W9th) could still be developed with minimal effect on the port operations, other than the bulk silo on the east side of the river. That has to be another 30-40 acres alone? 4. The city shut down the flats and gave it to Wolstein 10+ years ago, and we're just now seeing signs of development beyond the E&Y tower. How many years and global financial maladies would we have to endure to fill up 400+ acres of lakefront property? At its best I think Cleveland would end up putting something that looks like I271 and Harvard on the Burke property. And who here really wants that? 5. Burke can be a development tool. Why not offer free landing fees, office rent and other tax incentives to aviation-based companies, or corporations with private jets, to put their headquarters in downtown Cleveland? Cleveland is a 2 hour flight from 2/3 of the population of North America. There has to be a selling point in there somewhere? The airport in Addison TX comes to mind, if anyone has spent time in the North-Dallas suburbs. 6. If we were really thinking big, I'd rather see the port land around the mouth and west developed first (which would require something to happen with the bulk docks at Whisky island. Keep Burke as an economic generator, and cover the shoreway with mid-rise office complexes, apartments and retail to service all the new jobs created. This Shoreway-topper could easily become a TOD development with the extension of the Waterfront line, as well as an inter-city passenger service terminal located at E9th.

I imagine local building codes prefer concrete also for it's fire retardant capabilities.

It was determined a pad wouldn't work. They have to use a deep foundation system, i.e caissons. Then why the heck aren't they adding 10-15 stories of condos on top of this? Here we have a chance for "public" financing to contribute to new market rate construction downtown, and our leaders are dropping the ball! More floors could have been done on a Matt or caissons. 515 garage is on a Matt and has the potential for 17 more floors. Condos were not envisioned at the hotel. I believe the other major reason they are not looking into adding apartments to the tower is because that would mean the hotel would not be up and running by June 2016. Cleveland wants to make a bid for the RNC or DNC. Planning, designing, and construction of the apartments would push out the June 2016 time frame. It wouldn't be the first time a hotel (or vice versa) opened with construction still continuing on another part of the complex.

Nearly all of the QB's throwing to those tandems are in the HOF right now. And who is our quarterback? Hoyer? I stand by my comment drafting Watkins would be a wasted pick. The point was that in some cases, the receivers made the QB. Is Bradshaw in the Hall of Fame if he's throwing to Fair Hooker and Jubilee Dunbar? LOL. Thanks for the chuckle.

From my readings on this and other forums, there is actually considerable demand for new construction in downtown Cleveland, but rents/prices do not support it financially. The Convention Center hotel was originally not going to require foundations on bedrock. Now that it does, we have the foundation for additional floors on top of the hotel, with design and construction already being propped up by taxpayer subsidy. This would be a perfect opportunity for a developer to add new construction with out the shortfalls of the Cleveland market making it unfeasible. I agree with you that there are other rehab opportunities that need to be explored, but I also picture a market for some high-end condos in a deluxe building in the sky! This development offers a unique opportunity to deliver a Chicago-style residence.

I think Philadelphia is a better example. Chicago has maintained some level of consistency over the years, while Philly has come back tremendously in the last 20 years--helped along by it's quick train access to NYC. Cleveland could learn lessons here--imagine our draw with quick train access to Chicago AND New York City.

It was determined a pad wouldn't work. They have to use a deep foundation system, i.e caissons. Then why the heck aren't they adding 10-15 stories of condos on top of this? Here we have a chance for "public" financing to contribute to new market rate construction downtown, and our leaders are dropping the ball!

New "Ohio" rock. Or at least once from Ohio. The Afghan Whigs new single released today. http://music-mix.ew.com/2014/02/18/afghan-whigs-new-album-single-interview-greg-dulli/

When my niece played CYO football, one of her parents or me had to be at every practice as well as the games. Growing up I NEVER remember my parents hanging out at practices. And today with cell phones we are more connected. I don't see any reason why a kid can't function at practice, and a coach can't call the parent in case of emergency, or (oh the horror), act as an adult and make a decision of medical necessity. We still have to fill out the permission forms granting them said right. This is all part of the helicopter parenting that is taking over our society. Let kids be kids. They are going to get skinned knees, bruises and maybe a broken bone. I sure did. As long as parents leave their phone on and show up on time to pick their kid up, I see no problem with dropping them at practice.

Sad for the neighborhood and community. Maybe there can be a memorial bench outside as a part of the new Enchance Clifton streetscaping.

None have spoken up about it, and few if any advocates like me have said much to them about it since I did the study 11 years ago. Detroit Shoreway is a different place from 11 years ago. I bet he would be very interested in hearing about this.

My estimate 11 years ago was $144 million. It was peer-reviewed by several consulting firms, including LTK Engineering, Wilbur-Smith & Associates, and Parsons Brinckerhoff. NS is content with what they have. If they wanted something different (like the Lakefront Bypass), they would either be building and paying for this themselves, or making the request for funds combined with a financial contribution of their own. Any interest expressed by NS in this bypass means they will be asked to pay something. And the private sector never pays for anything when the public sector is willing to pay. Do any of our local politicians have an interest in this? I would think Matt Zone would take interest given the traffic through his ward in the city's "hottest" neighborhood.