Cleburger

Numerous CDCs, large employers, community associations and stakeholders were part of a Dual Hub/Euclid Corridor oversight committee. Nor did RTA and the city get what it originally wanted, so it was hardly ramrodded. RTA and the City of Cleveland wanted a subway and surface rail down Euclid. NOACA said the region couldn't afford it. Translation: they didn't want so much federal money spent in Cleveland. I stand corrected KJP--perhaps I've been spending too much time on Cleveland.com. But I also stand behind my point that mentioning BRT in Cleveland automatically denotes the Healthline. Whatever semantics are involved in the actual definition of BRT, the Clifton project is a far cry from what became of Euclid Ave.

I can see your concerns 327 but have a couple points on this. There is no reduced road capacity--the centre lane on Clifton currently is restricted to left turns in designated places, which would be maintained in the new design. Rather than yellow lines blocking the lane we would have trees and flowers. I do also believe in the calming abilities of these medians. Just yesterday I watched a guy almost roll his F-150 coming off the Shoreway at 60 mph he hit the turn by the Shell station doing at least 50 and nearly flipped it. If there were medians at the onset of Clifton and end of the Shoreway (or redesigned boulevard) I think we'd see a greatly reduced "freeway" feel through the neighborhood. In terms of the design, wasn't the Euclid Corridor ram-rodded by RTA alone (with a rubber stamp from the City of Cleveland)? The Enhance Clifton project has at least some checks and balances in place--there are Cleveland and Lakewood, RTA and also the Kent State Urban Design involved, all lending their voice to the process.

... maybe try reading a little bit. If you did, you'd understand the term "BRT" takes many forms in the current parlance, including the "bus related enhancements" RTA was pushing for before the TRAC funding denial. I never said, nor implied, that Clifton was to get a replica of the Health Line, and once again (for emphasis) the Health Line is not the only type for BRT there is. I do ready plenty, thank you. Start with the basics: Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit From this breakdown of BRT, the Enhance Clifton plan has one of the characteristics of BRT in RTA's request for a dedicated bus lane at rush hours. To me RTA failed miserably by once upon a time floating a full BRT plan for Clifton, but never clearly defining its objectives. When that plan died on the vine and the Enhance Clifton plan gained traction several years later, it gave detractors a perfect target to communicate their displeasure with ANY change in Cleveland. Let's face it Clvlndr, if you say BRT in Cleveland's current parlance, 90% of the population are not transit geeks as some members here are. They will immediately think "Health Line" no matter how you try to spin it. I didn't mean to insult you, rather point out RTA's extremely poor job of bringing this completely different concept to the table. If the highly vaunted Clvlndr, omnipotent fountain of Cleveland transit knowledge ( :lol:), is calling the Enhance Clifton project "BRT," then it stands to reason that Joe Cleveland.com will think RTA is trying to reinvent the Health Line down Clifton Blvd.

Good stuff KJP--Cleveland is filled with this kind of history. Keep it coming! :clap:

You know RTA has a PR problem with it's project when Urban Ohio members are making misinformed statements like Cleveland.com posters! :) The Enhance Clifton Project that was just this week denied TRAC funding was not a BRT project. RTA was only getting improved shelters and some lane restrictions during rush hour. It wasn't full scale BRT ala the Health Line. That Clifton BRT project, so far as I know, died years ago. RTA, along with the cities of Cleveland and Lakewood would have done themselves a service to communicate this in a more effective manner. Just mention Health Line near some car-bound suburbanites and they'll run howling about how RTA "ruined" Euclid Ave (ignoring the 50 years of blight leading up to the Health Line....).

Not to mention that the percentages do not adress the whole store. Columbus gained 3x-4x as many YP's than Cleveland, yet ended up with a slightly lower percentage. All this underscores my argument for Division I football at Cleveland State to build a residential campus environment. Give 30,000 kids a reason to live downtown through their four years of college and a good percentage will stay after graduation (assuming there are some jobs for them) Columbus is a perfect example of that process at work. Go Vikings!

\ The income figures for these moves, as well as most large urban counties show the outbound per capita incomes being replaced by much lower per capita incomes. I would attribute this to immigrant migration. The figures you noted for Franklin to Cuyahoga are much closer in number. Great map -very interesting!

I'm not holding my breath on that. We could just end up with 9 city guys dumping hot patch in the ruts....

Today's update on the TRAC denial on Cleveland.com: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/04/rta_cleveland_officials_unhapp.html

I'm sure everyone on here would agree with expenditures on safety--just not those designed to encourage more sprawl!

Still bummed, though not surprised, that the Clifton Blvd Enhancement project was axed. Nearly every project approved is some sort of suburban freeway widening or new interchange. At least it fosters development of new Cracker Barells. :laugh:

Here is the link to that article: http://www.cleveland.com/sunpostherald/index.ssf/2011/04/odot_rejects_funding_request_f.html What's sad is if you look at the list of ODOT TRAC funding, the top projects are 100% suburban and freeway projects....

Will love to see this project take shape! With a redone Clifton looming it will really polish up the near west side and help to connect Detroit Shoreway with Edgewater-Clifton.

I found this quote funny Cdawg. If you've ever had the unfortunate chance to work in Greece, you would know it's the corruption and greed that lead to that rioting. Nothing gets done in Greece without some "grease." Kickbacks and bribes are the way to get things done there--and when the gravy train was ending for those folks in their civil service jobs they weren't to happy and decided to take to the streets.

Sorry to veer back to the transportation topic, but I heard a rumor that the site of the former Tower City Amhpitheater is destined to be a surface lot. It is replacing parking being taken by the innerbelt bridge project.

I don't think it's worth debating--and I'm sure Dan Gilbert would agree. Going back to the earlier discussion, I wouldn't focus on it as a marketing tool in his idea to work with the Ritz and Tower City. Now for CLE+ or similar organizations it could make sense for the airport access, but not sure Gilbert is focusing on attracting out-of-towners just yet.

^ How many casino's across the country have you been to that are located in the heart of a city w/direct access to rail? Detroit is about the closest to that--but the point is irrelevant. I can tell you that 99% of Casino goers wouldn't use it anyway. If you put a casino in Midtown Manhattan--well yes you'd probably get some rail traffic. But not in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, New Orleans, etc....

For those of us who care--there is a public comment section on the Enhance Clifton website for these and more ideas related to the project. http://enhanceclifton.com/node/6

OK two out of thousands....trust me I've been to most every casino in America for my job. Your average casino goer isn't hopping a train. Let alone making the massive walk from downstairs at Tower City to the Higbee building. Dan Gilbert wants valet parking so they don't have to think after the long drive from Medina. Toss the keys to the Equinox and hit the tables!

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take. The only people taking the Rapid to the casino are those least able to afford the casino--the urban poor seeking quick riches in the confines of the old Higbee building. Can't wait for the glitz and glamor!

I don't understand why they just can't design the median a few feet narrower and keep the existing road within its current footprint? As someone mentioned above, the trees planted there are going to be saplings anyway. It will be 100's of years before they reach the size of the trees on the devilstrip (I think that is an Akron term :-D)

If it helps the city of Cleveland save on their employee health insurance premiums by making smokers cut down or quit, then I'm all for it. In reality though, it will probably just increase the length of time the employees spend away from their posts on smoke breaks. I'm sure the union is already working this point of bargaining since they will no longer be able to bargain for wages. :wink:

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

We will welcome you with open arms (and a lower tax rate)! :-D

Would explain Gilbert's eagerness to lock down the property out back for $85 million. He had eyes on the entire complex? I also heard through the grapevine that the former site of Tower City Amphitheatre is going to be parking.