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Poll: What do most people prefer? A city that "grew up" in the sunbelt, post WWII, when the automobile was king and when market forces drove suburban development, in such places as Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta; where people continue to move to in huge numbers regardless of the so called lack of urban living that everyone seems to want and desire so that they can live like people in Europe? (according to everyone on these blogs) Or... A city like Cincinnati that had the fortune of developing in the pre automobile years, yet can't get their shit together and continues to have a metropolitan area that barely has any in migration and rants and raves about a wopping 1,000 person increase over five years yet can't get enough support to redevelop a downtown (yes I agree it's gotten better) that theoritically could be the envy of most other average midwest cities; and of course we can't forget about our cherished Over the Rhine, that great neighborhood that has had "potential" for 20 years, yet lacks the market forces that will ever support its revitalization and true comeback? Just a question...devil's advocate time..

I always thought Raymond Walters was special....

Interesting discussion. I dont know that it is really that cold in Cincinnati, but rather the relative lack of sunshine for half the year makes it feel worse than other southern and western towns. Personally, since this entire thread is really opinion, I'd take an hot August where I can still cool off at the pool or lake, and golf 12 months out of the year, than the cold, rainy, cloudy weather in Cincinnati from November - March. Also, while latitude is a major factor in the predictor of climate; jet stream, ocean currents, proximity to large bodies of water, and elevation are also a huge variable in climate, so while yes, London and much of Northern Europe is extremely far to the north, the warm currents of the gulf stream greatly moderate its average temperatures. I think many people already pointed this out, I just feel like reiterating the obvious. In my opinion, the best weather in the US is probably San Diego...

Randy, you can always fall back on me...You missed out last night by the way... Regardless, I think your point is weak for the simple fact that you have lived in Cincinnati your entire life and have a great network of family and friends to fall back on. Anywhere else you go will not be able to compare to the security and comfort that goes along with lifelong friends and close family. Anytime you move to a new city regardless of where it is, is going to be a challenge, and friends are not going to magically appear unless you proactively search for them. What ATL and other cities do have are transient people, all proactively looking to make new friends, where my experience in Cincinnati is that the lack of new transplants reduces the pool of people looking to find a group of people to hang out with. I'm not saying that its impossible, but more difficult to do. JMeck..I'm moving to LA with 3 buddies to have many, many Entourage experiences....Hopefully my wife doesnt stop me.

Randy, I agree that the ATL vs the CVG has nothing to do with the state of downtown, but the thread has taken on a life of its own; I guess its only natural that the thread will evolve as more people respond with their own takes why things are the way they are...

David, If you read back in the thread you will find that I'm responding to a comment from someone else to my comment about 3rd tier cities such as Cincinnati having a hard time attract "urban dwellers and people who will risk sending their kids to city school." At which point he mocked calling Cincinnati a 3rd tier city. This is why blogs suck; It seems like someone is always jumping into a conversation that half finished and expecting to know what people have been talking about for the past hour...I'm probably guilty of it myself. Like every city, there's a trade off. Personally, I love what Cincinnati could be, its natural beauty and for the most part, the people...but I'll take the economic prosperity of Atlanta or any other sunbelt city for that matter... The same goes with living in Manhattan. A great city of course, but I would think that living in Manhattan is a real pain in ass. Going to the airport's a pain in the ass, the cost of living is a pain in the ass, or Chicago, shit, standing on the El platform at 7:00AM in January is a real pain in the ass, but a lot of people do it...It just depends on how they choose to prioritize their life. I'll take my 1/2 hour reverse commute in the AM and 1 hr PM drive in exchange for opportunities that exist in ATL and not in CVG as well as the pleasant winters. Just my own personal trade off; and it would seem the 125,000 + who move to Greater Atlanta every year. If I worked downtown like my wife, I'd have a mile commute...so not everyone sits in traffic for an hour and a half. I wasnt thrilled to move here from Charlotte, but as an "urban" fan, I've been absolutely amazed by the neighborhoods in this city and the revitalization occuring...

For the ATL haters (JMeck), I have been pleasantly surprised by the amount of infill and urban development occuring in this city having lived in Hoboken, Washington DC, Cincinnati (5 Years), San Jose, Madison, WI, and Charlotte and now ATL for 1.5 years Yes, it's a suburban mess, but the infill is something to desired, especially by a city like Cincinnati. The inward migration of families is very impressive. Many people feel the same way about Cincinnati as you feel about ATL; and honestly, most given the option (especially people in our Gen X demographic) would probably move to Atlanta. And yes, as far a US importance goes, I'd give Cincinnati a 3rd tier ranking. My opinion... For example: Tier One NYC, LA, SF, CHI, DC Tier Two BOS, ATL, DAL, PHL, SEA, HOU, MIA, SD, etc Tier Three CIN, CLE, DET, STL, CLT, so on and so forth...

Arren, I agee with you, unfortunately, Cincinnati, like most 3rd tier cities will probably never (or at least for a while) have this occur naturally. The same thing that is occuring in Chicago is occuring in the ATL where I live now. Schools have started to get better because these people care and DEMAND it. Incidentally Arenn, Walnut Hills HS is awesome, and although I cant say for sure, I'd have to imagine that some primary schools in HP / Oakley are probably ok as well. Its my guess that Middles Schools are the big issues, but its also unfortunate that there is only one real respectable high school. Ian

For those who are members of ULI (Urban Land Institute), check out the latest issue of Urban Land. There is a great article which disputes a lot of what I have said. Very well written and encouraging for supporters of change in the suburbs..If you are not a member, you should join. Great organization..www.uli.org One more thing, as most readers, most recent American development has been driven by ease of transportation, e.g., the automobile. While the development of most European and to some extent older American cities were driven by the need to walk or use street cars to commute, much of America has developed Post WWII where the affordable use of cheap, private cars allowed jobs and residences to relocate further outside cities. In my opinion...if and when the use of automobiles becomes cost prohibitive, we will see mass transition to other types of growth, whether it be mass rail transit or what; only then will the economics justify a substantiative change in lifestyle. As we all know, this has started to occur in some cities.

Rando, You make some good points, none of which can be argued against...there is a cause and effect of every single policy that the government and social policy that has occurred since the beginning of time, but that creates a society. Like I stated in my post, it would have to take a fundamental shift in American culture to foster true "urban living" but I also would insist that affordability is going to drive demand more than "what developers" provide. Personally, I doubt this shift to an urban life will occur in masse, and I doubt this will really change most what most American's percieve to be the ultimate American Dream. Its too engrained in our culture. Although I'm not a huge fan of many suburban zoning policies that have segrated land uses, and downzoned property to decrease density, I cant help but say that the people who are making these decisions are elected officials who are reacting to the desires of their constituents... If people really didnt like the way the suburbs where developing they'd vote the policy makers out of office. Its a fact..I've been in rezonings where some jackass is objecting to the amount of traffic that will be created in a development of 2.5 units/acre...All this coming from a schmuck living in a community with, gasp, 4 units per acre...We've been voted down because politicians know its what people want. It's embedded in our culture..as are many other ills caused by crappy government policies such as racism, prolifieration of guns, you name it...Only when people demand change at the ballot will these policies evolve. Change however is happening in some areas, and these areas have seen an increased development and demand for "mixed-use" projects; but because our society is they way it is, the market for these communities is still a niche market. People have more choices than ever, now..neotraditional communities are popping up all over the place, and term "mixed-use" developed is more overdone than a hamburger on a grill for 2 hours...(at least in ATL) For now Cincinnati and other cities have to create places that will attract the demographic that is most likely to enjoy "urban living." Only 10 years ago this blog probably wouldnt have existed (even if technology had allowed it) so its gaining traction, but it well never replace the percieved "American Dream" of a nice big house with a piece of dirt in the burbs...so to debate why are the way we are is a mute point. Oh, and cities that have limited sprawl by creating urban growth boundaries, or have natural boundaries preventing overt sprawl (namely NYC, SF, Portland, etc, etc...) have seen property values rise to the point where most working class people have a hard time affording a place to buy, as such migration to more affordable parts of the country (namely sunbelt) have been occurring to give people what they want; a cheap plot of land the raise a family. They only saving grace in these urban cities is immigration from foreigners who have helped to reclaim long neglected neighborhoods...Oh shit, in Cincinnati they dont like immigrants (at least what's percieved)...so they go elsewhere. I'm probably rambling by this point..thanks for reading.

Surely there will be some families who choose to reside in the center city, but most, probably 95% prefer to live in the suburbs. I work for a large builder in Atlanta, and although the city has seen a tremendous amount of population of growth in the city (relative to the declines in 60's-90's) most growth remains in the suburbs where land and housing is more affordable. Even with the ridiculous traffic, most, not all, people prefer suburban living because of the affordability and space. I also think that as gas/oil prices increase, the financial incentive to develop alternative fuels will continue to grow and in the next 10 - 15 years people will be able to drive their car as much as they like, in an affordable and "clean" manor. What is encouraging however, is that people more people (relative to the declines in the 60's - 90's) are making a decision to forgoe the large lot in the suburbs for a smaller lot in town, or townhome/condo. Its going to take a tremendous shift in American culture to encourage most families to migrate to condo living, especially those with school age children. My wife and I live in a condo in Midtown ATL, and as much I love the "lifestyle", its would be impossible to add a 3rd or 4th in our forth floor 2BR. Our option then will be to find an very expensive new construction in town, an expensive older house with high maintence costs in town, a little less expensive house in a first ring burb, or an affordable house in the "suburbs." Hopefully we'll be in a position where the first 3 are an option. I think most however are not, and Atlanta also happens to be a very affordable city to live in, relative to other large cities. I would also say to someone else's point that a 1 BR condo in Cincinnati would have to be extremely special to be $300K, such as view, finishings, etc. I would suspect that most 1BR condo's are probably about 900 SF and cost < $225K , but I havent pulled up the MLS listings. I would love to see Cincinnati take it to the next level, and I'm impressed with everything that's happening, especially in the last 1 - 2 years. Hopefully, the new residents will create a critical mass that will give DT and OTR the "Buzz" and energy that people really crave in urban living, and then it will just start to happen on its own. However, I also think that its failure to attract large numbers of the kinds of people who want to live in and invest in urban areas is going to make the revitalization longer than it ordinarly would. They can't change the weather (although Cincinnati would probably benefit from global warming, perhaps a sunbelt city in 2100?) but they can change their attitudes, but I'm not holding my breath.

When you say priced more reasonably, I hope you mean, smaller, in a less than desirable location (for most people), or heavily subsidized by taxpayers...$200/ft is a starting point in the CBD, while $100/ft might work in OTR. What this really says is that Cincinnati needs to attract either people young professionals who want an urban lifestyle or higher paying jobs for its YP's. A lot of people would kill for a $300K condo downtown. (even outside of the 1st and 2nd tier cities). I think that many of us who read these urban Cincinnati blogs have an unrealistic sense of the depth the "urban" market in Cincinnati. No offense, but most fireman and policemen have wives and families and are the least likely to buy in a city. The market is DINK (Dual Income, No Kids) YP, Creative, Gay, and Empty Nester. Not scientific. The "working class" will not find a home downtown anymore; in any city. Land prices and construction costs are way too high. For ragerunner, the 1st quarter of the year is always the slowest (yes I noticed 52 -> 17) however the market is not that deep downtown and a building or two, opening up or in this case, not opening, can skew the numbers completely. I can guarantee you that the housing prices downtown has not dropped 50%. Perhaps a relative shortage of new supply became available in Q1 2007. The downtown market is not very deep at all, so new construction is significant to sales, avg, median, whatever. Also to compare the Downtown Cincinnati housing "bust" to other cities is shortsided. As in detached, suburban construction, downtown never really "boomed" to the point of severe over supply, only a lack of demand; the downtown market is still evolving which leads to some market ineffeciencies that will work itself out as the downtown market matures. Like everything else written on a blog, no right or wrongs, only opinions. Digest as so desired. Ian

Not to mention that they have a great rooftop patio that is overgrown with vines...but what a great city feeling. Some rehab and a bar on the outside coupled with some lights and could be an great asset to downtown

Has anyone been to the rooftop bar of the Terrace Hotel at 6th and Vine? I had post wedding breakfast up there and I feel like with a little TLC and some vision, the spot could become a trendy "Ghost" Bar style club in Downtown Cincinnati. I'm sure if those condo's ever got built there it might have been something, but its worth considering. Has anyone been up there? If not I recommend checking it out and seeing if the owners plan to do anything with the space. As far as I know, it was a restaurant in the 80's and early 90's but doesnt see much action. Ian