neilworms

The only place I think beats Cincinnati in terms of loss of high quality architecture is St Louis. They had neighborhoods like OTR around downtown, and not a single one of them remains, all that is left are fragments of Old North St. Louis and the relatively intact Lafayette Square and Soulard (both of which aren't as dense and both are a few miles from downtown where lost neighborhooods once stood and are now giant messy dead zones. They were also super early in starting urban renewal and very zealous with it ever since, this is a pic prior to the arch grounds being cleared: http://photos.mycapture.com/STLT/1092643/31999522E.jpg After: http://www.stl250.org/userfiles/com.stl250/image/12.30.14%20Inaugural%20seen%20at%20the%20foot%20of%20the%20Arch%20in%201969___Source.jpg And even to this day a lot more is gone.

That's sad considering how low grade much of Toledo's vernacular architecture is. Places like STL (are there any frame buildings there?!) Cincy and Baltimore should have a similar mentality IMO and it would go much further given the quality of what's left.

I don't have a problem with the ramp in this case, its pretty much a standard feature of urban groceries. Even in more transit rich cities one of the few things people will do by car is get groceries though not everyone - and I think this place covers all bases. I don't like the loss of an alleyway but this is pretty much a means to an end to getting something that is a much desired asset. I'm no fan of the design, but I'll admit its in line with contemporary architecture in larger cities.

OTR has come a long way, but its not as you are describing, putting this here:

That giant field is interesting. Its actually the site of an old massive rail yard the reason for it not being developed is a lack of infrastructure (and possibly some industrial remediation) to connect the area as it literally only housed an absolutely staggering number of rails (it was basically the main line for most of the US to approach Chicago which was and still is our biggest rail hub). There have been proposals floated to redevelop it but nothing has materialized, I think it stalled out largely due to the crash in 08 - something should be coming in the pipeline soon. The South Loop is in pretty good shape with very few abandoned buildings left, though you get to motor row and southwards of Cermak street and it becomes a mess. Bronzeville has some gorgeous and unique early 20th century architecture that is reflective of its status when it was built as one of the richest neighborhoods in Chicago (it was only later when it became the african american ghetto). St Louis makes Cincy's level of abandonment in the basin look manageable and tame - North STL is one of the saddest places I've ever seen as there are so many gorgeous brick rowhouses that are mostly gone with the few remaining oftentimes being slowly worn down by scavengers for the high quality brick that city was famous for. Its also has an architectural quality that is top notch particularly in the Midwest. Combine this with large overzealous urban renewal projects from the 1930s-1970s and some absolutely hideous infill built to suburban specs in the 1990s. Its a giant disaster. I also feel its another area with architecture of a similar quality and age to the west end or even Lower Price hill (though less dense) that's in even worse shape. Cincy is pretty bad though but there is a fighting chance if people act quickly.

I wonder if Kroger's acquisition of Mariano's influenced the design it has that kind of grey and silver motif you find on all their groceries: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8805274,-87.6473208,3a,75y,318.94h,97.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sosU_98u6lon_7EHhCUHp9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/534d7420f92ea14db602389a/broadway-marianos-2.png http://www.chicagobusiness.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/CG/20140127/CRED03/140129792/AR/0/AR-140129792.jpg Even their suburban stores: http://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20130702/news/707029754/AR/0/AR-707029754.jpg&updated=201307030734&MaxW=800&maxH=800&updated=201307030734&noborder

Troy, that's what excites me about Cincinnnati right now, there has been a seachange in mindset especially among younger people. The new culture that is replacing the old one is awesome and much more positive. Cincy is on a rocky road right now, but its future is really bright.

The hatred of Yuppies is puzzling because Cincinnati doesn't have too much of the kind of douchey yuppie culture that makes people hate them, stuff like this: http://chicagoist.com/2016/01/12/finally_live_in_a_building_stuffed.php And that doesn't even come close to what you'll find on the coasts as many posts from C-Dawg reveal... Someone like Bill Cunningham who travels to NYC regularly might understand this is a thing, then sell it to a Cincinnati audience who lives in the suburbs (or outer neighborhoods of the city).

Keep up the good fight on the Megabus stop :) Before I strayed too far from the original point, I guess what bothers me is the sheer negativity towards revitalization. I just don't see it at that level elsewhere unless there is a genuine crisis like in San Francisco. (Yes in Chicago it does exist too again not quite at as strong a level). I'm grasping at straws to find an answer and I'm not fully sure I completely understand it myself. EDIT: I think taestell[/member] had pretty good points about it being a political tool which in turn has really enhanced the mentality. Comments sections in newspapers everywhere are awful I might add lol.

^-City-wide gondola system? Would be so very cool to see - esp between Mt Adams and downtown...

I'll admit I'm grasping at straws with some details here, still posting food for thought ;)

Try printing that map out. Lol. I'll admit that's a bit of a stretch. It does remind me of visiting Saint Louis which has a lot in common with Cincy, but they seem to be much more interested in talking about their past achievements with others. The Missouri History museum is superior in every way to the Cicninnati one that spends way too much time talking about WWII (though at least Cincy's does have that really cool scale model of the city circa 1940) and not enough time on its heyday from 1800-1890. In STL There was an exhibit that talked about how STL was at its peak year of 1875 and lots of facts were discussed that were weirdly similar to Cincinnatis (for instance the small footprint of the city - 64 mi for STL 78 for Cincy). Its kind of driven theses thoughts I've had home...

I really think its a matter of the Status Quo being disrupted to the point where Cincinnatians can't wrap their head around it. Mallory and co did things vastly different than what was the norm in Cincinnati politics for nearly 50 years. I'm almost positive OTR wouldn't have been done by 3CDC if it wasn't for Mallory's leadership (he focused them away from the Banks). As a result people just don't know what to expect. They don't understand how things work elsewhere because they don't care or refuse to acknowlege elsewhere. Its a giant cultural problem of Cincinnati that permeates deep into the city, I'll cite a few examples from when I was showing friends from Chicago around the city: One of my friends has odd interests, she loves cemeteries and libraries (she's a librarian herself) so I know that Cincinnati has excellent and unusual libraries and one utterly fantastic cemetery. Because I never got a chance to check it out I go to Spring Grove's website and see if there is a walking/driving tour we can take. They have a sheet, but when we go to print it out its printed at a ridiculously small size, and we can't figure out how to fix it without making the guide look bad. The assumption here IMO is if you are visiting this site you are a local so no need to accommodate out of towers even though we talk about how unusual this cemetary is... The second instance was finding the mercantile library again an odd interest - we had a heck of a time finding it and signage was terrible for it. Made me think well you know the mentality is its only something locals would be interested in even though its unique so you know everyone should already know about it - its not like people from out of town would actually want to go there. Going to a more general interest - there is nothing but a very expensive once a year trip down to the subway tunnels. Most people out of town that I tell there is abandoned subway to think its cool. However its only open once a year, nothings even been considered to expand this or take advantage of this even though there are other quirky attractions like this around the country that have done it even ones that are more dubious in quality like the Portland Underground that understand an interest in quirky local history or oddities. Even more general, why the *(&*( is the freaken megabus stop in a parking lot in Queensgate instead of somewhere that you know would be accommodating to out of town tourists particularly those of us who are from Chicago are okay with transit and may not know that the downtown stop is in such a terrible location. Also why aren't the city steps promoted more? Pittsburgh, Seattle and San Fran do way more with their public steps than Cincinnati does? Again I think its the same terrible mentality. I guess the point I'm getting at is this, there is a very deep cultural distrust/ignorance of the outside world in Cincinnati. It doesn't apply to everyone who lives there but its deep and it ruins what should be rational conclusions about many many things. Its a wonder that Cincinnati got someone like Mallory who had foresight and perspective two things that traditional leadership wasn't interested in even if they knew better.

But, those evil hipster-yuppies are fueling an unsustainable bubble. I'm a lifelong Cincinnatian and all I know is that neighborhoods never last forever! This is todays news, not tomorrows! I also hate the streetcar and anything new and different. Bubble! Bubble! I don't travel anywhere and even if I did we are different! :evil: Seriously though, it really baffles me how many Cincinnnatians have an almost unique talent for making anything positive a negative its not healthy.

Happy to see someone else notice this. West End is way undervalued now, if you want to get in now is the time.

Glad to see this happening around there, that whole part of SF is weirdly eerie despite its central location... I'm also really happy to read San Jose is densifiying. Its downtown could be pretty nice if there was a lot more housing - plus unlike San Mateo Country (which does deserve a lot of scrutiny for its "American Dream" policies) San Jose is committed to getting BART service into its downtown to better link it with SF (though again it would be waaayyy better if the peninsula were to get on board as so much of tech is tied to the ridiculous Caltrain corridor which shouldn't be a commuter rail but instead should be setup more like BART or be a BART train). I've also read Mountain View is on board and I've been looking at streetviews of its downtown and see that rowhouses and apartment blocks are replacing what was formerly low density industrial along the Caltrain corridor (and within walking distance of the VTA light rail), hoping for more of that on a bigger scale for the Bay Area and the tech industry's sake. Anyways, this is probably the ultimate article on understanding the Bay Area's housing crisis - I hate all the direct blame of tech companies, though I do understand more enlightened protesters who wish to get the attention of the companies to lobby towards the bay's local governments, Sacramento, and Washington to get political policy to help the Bay get control of the crisis. This is a long read and a few years out of date, but its pretty definitive on the subject: http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/

That Chicago number is way inflated. I think DNAinfo talked about this same study which was based off of Zillow listings which are IMO biased towards pricier properties. 1900/mo 1bdrm is River North prices or the top end of Wicker Park these days - its not reflective of even the majority of the North Side of Chicago nor does it represent the economically depress south or far west sides (one of the few hoods where this is low is in the west loop though). You can live in a hip neighborhood for 1200-1600 a month for a 1 bd in most instances.

Would it be possible to do structural reinforcement to allow the Roebling bridge to be able to handle larger vehicles again?

If people are really starting to say stuff like that then I think a bubble might be nigh. Its kind of weird but bubbles only happen when most people start getting irrational about such things with statements like there won't be a bubble (on a side note the sheer level of negativity towards OTR in Cincy right now being overvalued is giving me the opposite instinct - it will grow for many years to come too many people think it is a bubble).

There's only so much development money to go around, fellas. I was thinking pie in the sky, I'd suggest the gondola to Mt Adams before suggesting something like this. If Cincy had SF level monies lol.

How about from Paul Brown over to Columbia-Tusculum? Part of which using the row that's there for the Oasis line, that way it could be a scenic riverside heritage line that would have some practical use too and you could sell it as going from downtown to the painted ladies of Columbia-Tusculum. Shame Cincinnati is so backwards about how it looks at its untapped assets...

Yeah, the only NKY river city that really seems to have its stuff together is Bellevue. I wish others would use them as an example and follow suit. I'm really hoping the streetcar makes it to those cities and is used properly as a redevelopment tool. I do think that as prices rise in Cincinnati's core NKY is the next logical step for revitalization - its a heck of a lot eaiser to turn around those neighborhoods than it is to turn around the far more bombed out Cincy ones (as much as I love the west end for instance similar housing is available and ready to go at a much cheaper price point instead of spending 10s of thousands of dollars on rehab).

I just streetviewed the area, its pretty intact though there are abandoned buildings and gaps where demos took place here and there. Covington in general is way more intact than Cincinnati neighborhoods of the same vintage. Its shocking that the area hasn't turned around anymore than it has...

Another neighborhood like fells point would be Bridgeport in Chicago. It's the oldest hood in the city as it was an independent city and never gentrified yet never collapsed thanks to the Daley's, in spite of an influx of Chinese from nearby Chinatown and some hipsters fleeing the increasingly expensive nw side. You are right about a neighborhood of that vintage and style being a rare and odd experience in today's urban America. The only other place I can think of that was like that was the west side of Cincinnati pre 2000 - it's since declined quite a bit though...

They have been testing this in Chicago on a limited scale for a few months like lunch only at limited restaurants on weekdays