Gordon Bombay

Mike McConnell?

It's a lot of "what comes first, the chicken or the egg," right? If you make it free, boarding is easier (but then the system still isn't reliable/frequent). If you make it reliable/frequent (then you don't have to worry about getting delayed buying a ticket because another one comes soon/you might be invited or inclined to try it or rely on it). Ideally, the City/local transit authority would do both. Free fares will come with some issues, though–it'll need a big PR push/sell to the public, will become easy talk radio fodder, and it will be an easy attacking point for opponents. Presently, any local politician who would speak for it probably isn't a great spokesperson/the most popular individual right now. And the SORTA Board - well, yeah. They've shown little to no interest in improving the system. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying @taestell and the afternoon after I made that post - I went to board a train at Washington Park/12th. A family was able to buy tickets, was able to navigate how to purchase multiples (the machines don't make this clear and are not quick about it), and they were still delayed because it took forever for the machine to print multiple tickets. They would've missed that streetcar had the operator not waited a full light cycle and a half for them. I tried to explain the app to them for future use, but they weren't too interested and even demonstrating that app is like pulling teeth. It's easy enough, but it's not intuitive. So yeah, make the damn thing free/easy.

I think the biggest thing is, whether you're in a group or not, it just makes it easier. You can literally just walk up to a station and know (with confidence) that you can board. You don't need to fumble through a value-engineered app or hassle with the worst ticket vending machines known to transit. Of course, none of that matters if the trains aren't frequent and reliable. You have to be able to ride in the first place.

Used to live by it and it has been closed for awhile if not a year. The Flying Pig next door is a great local spot, though.

How fitting!

Hahaha, my apologies @KJP - I just realized that not only did you post this to the thread already, but you authored it. And I thought I was following this topic closely, lol.

This is going around Twitter today: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/03/usl-cleveland-soccer-stadium-site-chosen.html

No doubt. If the headways are 10 minutes or less (and signs are truly accurate), then an appl/tracking isn't needed at all. However, the current (and previous) power players can't even get the thing to meet 12 minute or 15 minute headways during the arbitrary "peak" and "off-peak" times. This is why "free" fares will never matter if the system isn't fast and frequent first. Yeah the payment systems are awful (the app is decent), but who is even going to bother to pay when you're waiting 15 minutes to run a few blocks? It is so incredibly disheartening to see how Cincinnati politicians, transit officials, leaders, etc. can't manage to run this thing within even a degree of success that other systems are experiencing. This city, I swear.

Agreed. This is huge. And even if you're going to have 10+ minute waits, at least have an app where the thing can be truly and effortlessly tracked. The free "Transit" app (from a 3rd Party) is not great for tracking the trains.

^ Totally agree @Cincy513. Also, related: I was shooting some photographs of the arena recently and also came across a great podcast episode that discussed Cincinnati's previous flirtation with the NHL ala The Cincinnati Stingers. I posted it all here: http://bit.ly/2tJa2uK The link has some great quotes from former WHA President Howard Baldwin such as: "Cincinnati had great ownership and wanted to get in the NHL, but the NHL didn’t want them." and there's some photos of the arena that I made too:

Whoops! Thanks, @DEPACincy for making the spreadsheet and thanks @edale for making some good points!

Just to clarify–I wasn't trying to be rude, rather, it was just easier to respond to multiple points by breaking up the text and referencing things directly. In terms of your more recent post, you state that "there really isn't," an arena in Seattle. There is, though. Key Arena can accommodate a rink, has historically, and will again. The Seattle NHL franchise was contingent on that arena receiving funds for renovation, it's getting them and the entire arena (except for the historic roof) will be gutted and renovated. So, yes, Seattle has and will have an arena that's up to snuff for the modern NHL. I'm aware of Seattle's deep hockey roots, but in terms of "they want it," well... yeah. Hockey has long been popular there, but they also have the proven attendance and rich investors to make it happen. Seattle has long been an expansion candidate/hopeful. Cincinnati has not and will not (even if we had a new arena). In terms of "making the market," that's the point I'm trying to make. Cincinnati has forced itself into those conversations before, most recently with soccer. This market, though, has expressed little to no interest in terms of pro hockey and pro basketball. There are three D1 college programs already vying for corporate support and hockey has always been received as lukewarm at best. The city's best shot at landing the NHL (after the Stingers left town) was when the original Cyclones were very popular in the early 90s. At the time, the NHL played a series of test games and Cincinnati was under consideration. Lack of a newer arena, the downturn of minor league hockey support, and the ambition of the Blue Jackets put that to rest. The Barons existed at a similar time to the Stingers, but were NHL from the start (and originated in California). Their demise wasn't at all similar, though. Lack of fan and corporate support combined with NHL/ownership financial issues saw that club merged with the Minnesota (now Dallas) Stars. Even with a renovated and newer arena in Cleveland, an NHL team is still unlikely to exist there with Columbus down the road. Same for Cincinnati. We could build the nicest, newest, best facility – the NHL isn't going to give us a team unless the Blue Jackets move or fold. The NHL (and by extension MLB, NBA) has much more financial power and different standards/requirements compared to MLS. Soccer is a whole different animal. We can exist with Columbus in that league, probably not going to happen in the others. Same with the NBA–Indy and Cleveland are too close. Even if we "made our market" and stated our case with huge financial and fan support, there are other cities the NBA has already expressed interest in (spoiler alert: they're all bigger in population and television size). All of it's moot anyways....neither the NBA or NHL would ever consider US Bank Arena at this point in time. See Philly's Spectrum and Long Island's Nassau Coliseum as examples. And just to reiterate, I love this topic and these kinds of discussions on UO. Not trying to pick on you or your posts, but you offer the opportunity for conversation and I appreciate that. @edale - thanks for making that spreadsheet. Contrary to where I originally stood, I think there's maybe a case to be made that the arena could be missing some acts. Still, I'd like to know... why. If it is the arena, then the arena operators should be sharing specifics (especially if they're asking for public dollars). Who have we lost out on, why, and how would a renovation help that, etc. I think they've failed miserably in making their case every time (the place also doesn't do itself any favors when you visit).

Always heard it speculated that the "upgrade" was just to get more money out of the sale of the land for when the Reds would eventually need the space for their new riverfront ballpark... ...then they just wedged GABP in there and said "hey neighbor, nice new seats!" @edale - Good point about the physical rigging of stages. Could most definitely see that. I guess my frustration, though, stems from the fact that the arena can never point to a specific act that didn't come and then a specific reason as to why they didn't come. As @jmecklenborg pointed out–regardless of arena age, Cincinnati competes geographically with promoters. I think everyone here agrees that US Bank Arena is outdated, old, generally bad, etc. and that a new arena would be nice. However, without a prime tenant (and no argument on missing out on acts/conventions), there's never going to be a case for public $ any time soon.

Is it "well known," though? Because, here's the thing: - Political conventions - Realistically you're going to get one (maybe two if you can lure both parties during the arena's lifespan). - I'll grant you the NCAA tournaments, but the final isn't held in arenas anymore (rather, massive adapted football stadiums). - As for big concerts, the arena still has never named specifically who is skipping Cincinnati and for what reasons (other than geography). What physical issue with the arena is keeping some band out and which bands? Red Hot Chili Peppers just played all regional cities and their big arenas (including ours) on their last world tour. Erich Church's arena tour just pulled through last weekend. And Metallica was here not too long ago So, what arena acts are we missing specifically due to the arena? Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've yet to see solid examples and would truly appreciate seeing what acts these are. This isn't necessarily the case across the board anymore, though. Vegas will be a telling experiment.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I keep having conversations about the arena and its goals among people who seem to be befuddled that the City/County/Corporate Backers/Public were so quick to push for FC Cincinnati/MLS, but these groups never show much interest in the arena. So, I'm gonna rattle off a few reasons as to why I think that is and throw an idea out there, would love to hear your thoughts. Why Few Seem To Care: The precedent isn't there. US Bank Arena has always been privately owned/maintained (and rather poorly at that if you've ever been in the restrooms). There's no public involvement now, nor is there a strong case for the public to be involved. The arena STILL can't point out what they're missing. Regular touring acts (WWE, Disney on Ice) still can use the arena. Regular concerts come through. And if we're passed up for concerts, it seems to be geographic issues rather than arena ones (we get some shows that other cities don't get). There's no major league tenant and no hope of one (NBA and NHL aren't coming). In my opinion, the arena has never made its case very well. It always seems halfhearted. And to be fair, they have an uphill battle. But why should anyone care? Why would anyone give public dollars to an ownership that is loaded with cash, yet hardly maintains its existing facility? You could make the argument for FCC (right or wrong, MLS was an easier sell for politicians) because it was popular, in a growing sport, and gains the region huge notoriety. What does a new US Bank Arena really get you? A Tenant That (I Think) Could Work: The WNBA. It's an interesting league. Seems to struggle in some markets, do relatively well in others. In a market like Cincinnati, they'd be the only pro basketball team in town, a unique experience and a unique league. The venue has more than enough seats. You could really market a WNBA club as a true, priority tenant. I'd love to see a team added alongside some arena upgrades (by the owner, not the public) to show that the arena is worth anyone's time.

Uh, ok, well... interesting you should bring this up because I don't think anyone is saying "Cincinnati wants one" in terms of an NHL or NBA franchise. However, Cincinnatians did want soccer/MLS and have showed up in large numbers these last few years. This market went from being on no one's soccer radar to MLS expansion side in four years. However, in terms of NBA and NHL–these are two far more traditional leagues in established sports. I'm sure there's plenty of people who'd love to have an NBA or NHL team, but no one can be enthused about that (nor can new converts be rallied to cause), because simply it's not going to happen. MLS was a long shot, but the *chance* was there. Neither the NBA or NHL is going to expand to this market so long as Cleveland/Indy exist in the NBA and Columbus exists in the NHL. FCC also benefited from incredibly strong financial backing. Who's ever been the face of an NBA or NHL push? No one with money has ever vied for the NHL since the 70s and the last "influencer" to mention the NBA was a local radio host who hardly had the capital to make it happen. Not really so much that "they" want it, rather, a group of rich investors want it, have the cash to back it up, have obtained arena renovation promises, and have in turn enthused the public with the idea that the NHL could (and then would) happen. They do have an arena. We don't. No modern NHL or NBA team is going to consider US Bank Arena and any "renovation" will still put that building far below modern standards. Again, this is ironic considering that Cincinnati has done this with soccer, something they had a chance at. It's not a realistic opportunity with NBA and NHL so close. I disagree. Neither are likely, but the NHL is never going to allow a Cincinnati team so close to a Columbus market that's gotten better (yet is still struggling). Not to mention, Cincinnati is a historically somewhat weak hockey market. The NBA could at least attempt to tap into college basketball programs and similar market metrics ala the Reds/Indians. Still, Indy is close. Neither league is going to happen. Ironic you'd mention the Barons. How'd things work out for them? Cincinnati had its last chances at NBA and NHL in the 70s. Unless there's a major shakeup in those leagues or a massive shift in interest locally, neither is going to come here. Also note that every time the arena has asked for funds/renovation help they NEVER even attempt to say "oh, well, the NBA or NHL COULD come here."

I know and the world is worse for it. What I wouldn't give to have the Bosstones headlining The Pietasters, Reel Big Fish, Mustard Plug, and No Doubt.

While I agree on free fares—because the machines are abysmal/not at all customer friendly, nor reliable—I maintain that the bigger issue is frequency. 12-15 minutes between trains is such an arbitrary and goofy time. Not to mention, between blockages and inconsistent operations these times are (from a perception standpoint) rarely adhered to. The real-time arrival signs work these days, but the news they present isn't always "good" news. Nor would they be needed if the trains simply had (and operated with) a ten minute frequency. I don't think people would mind paying if they could walk up to a station and know (with confidence) that it'd be no more than ten minutes until the next vehicle approaches. And if that kind of frequency can't happen—there needs to be a real way to track the vehicles so you can time it properly. I'm talking about a real, modern app that truly tracks the trains and shows you their position along the line. Metro's BusTracker website is not mobile friendly and the Transit app's real-time tracking is not intuitive, nor always reliable. For the common/casual user—these are not options. Simply put: the fare payment (or just a simple tracking app) needed to exist over two years ago. Frankly, if the streetcar isn't going to have good operations or be frequent, then "free" fares will be of limited help. If anything, they'll attract more negative attention and be an easy, easy attack point for critics and opposing politicians on "both sides." Just as an example: Was at the Freedom Center yesterday and needed to get to 6th/Main. Real-Time arrival sign said "17 minutes." Walked it in no time. Yeah, it's true—you can't walk faster than the streetcar when it's right beside you, but when it gives you a massive head start like that, walking is going to come out on top.

This is all I have talked about on Twitter and Reddit the past two days.

Did these tunnels remain after Concourse C was demolished?

Flew in and out of CVG last week. My girlfriend and I always argue whether or not to wait for the train and to be fair at CVG, walking is pretty comparable. I've always loved the train since I was a kid, though, and after flying in from Tampa I made us do it to complete a day of riding people movers (Tampa has a ton). It got me thinking, though, I remember once reading that Delta/Comair had considered extending the train to the former Concourse C, but opted to use buses instead. Since the train uses Otis' "HovAir" technology and is pulled by cables in a direct line, how would it have made the right turn over to Concourse C? Would they have had to build a new train system? Anyone have any insight? Also, I only used ComAir when I was pretty young. Does anyone remember where the buses boarded?

Pot, meet kettle.

No doubt. I do believe, though, that as this city (and others) reputations have grown (whether that's from notable events, sports team success, or a booming entertainment district) and these people have experienced it for themselves, they start to identify with the greater region. FCC is a perfect example. On any match day, there's thousands of people waving Cincinnati City flags or wit the flag on their shirts. Most of them probably don't reside in, come from, or hail from within the city limits. CinyShirts too - yeah, there's some hyper-local, area specific shirts in there, but they do a booming business selling "Cincinnati" on their products even out in Mason and Loveland.

This is so incredibly true. When I first went off to University circa 2007, everyone who hailed from the Cincinnati or Columbus suburbs would identify themselves by their particular township, hamlet, or city. "Oh, hi, I'm from Fairfield, Ohio! That's about 20 minutes north of Cincinnati." Meanwhile, everyone from Pittsburgh and Cleveland, no matter where particularly in the region, would state: "From Pittsburgh," or, "From Cleveland." Both of those cities were quick to the trend of rebuilding their identities (often helped by successful sports teams getting attention as well as ambitious projects in their urban cores). In the ensuing years, I noticed similar things happening to Cincinnati and Columbus. There was a time where we'd go to Neon's Unplugged (now Rosedale) and be the only ones playing bocce or catching a drink. Then a few years later, you couldn't get in on a Friday or Saturday night. The point is: I don't think it's just young people from other cities who are coming here and getting priced out of other places (although that's certainly happening), but you have "locals" that have grown up in a bland suburban wasteland that now see the potential the city has to offer and there's demand for more living space, things to do, and entertainment. So the urban core, and by some extent certain outer neighborhoods, are growing like crazy. In terms of historic buildings, these are essential to creating the right type of sustainable environment. You can't knock them all down and replace them with cheap, suburban crap. Look at all the half-empty strip malls in West Chester. There's going to be times where some structures are too far gone, there's going to be times where some structures can be replaced by something more useful, but we should do everything in our power to preserve what we do have. It sets this city apart, it creates a unique environment, it helps build livable, walkable, space. There's a certain poster here who has a very interesting attitude towards historic buildings, that kind of 1970s Cincinnati thinking is what get a potentially reusable building like The Dennison Hotel turned in to an astroturf dog park. No, thanks. We can and must do better. Now that Cincinnati is "trendy" again, we don't need to go back to the "good ol' Pete Rose Pearl Clutching attitude." As for FC Cincinnati - I'm a fan, a season ticket holder. I had no issues with Newport, hated the Oakley idea, but thought the West End offered the best potential. I'm hopeful the club sees value in being a part of, not redefining, the urban space there. OTR on a Friday night doesn't seem too terribly different from a college bar street at times, but what sets it apart is the multitude of spaces and structures that allow other uses. It can be enjoyed as much more than simply a night out. Hopefully FCC does right by the community and recognizes that.

No doubt. And for commuting between Middletown, Hamilton, and Dayton, this route seems like a decent idea (if not a bit long), but it won't actually have any good, real, or substantial connections to Cincinnati. Even if you're reverse commuting into Downtown via Government Square and want to reach a job in the suburbs, this route won't do much for you.