Oldmanladyluck

Great pics! These neighborhoods are my favorite areas of the city as well. Thanks!!

I know there was a shrinking city thread for Youngstown, but Detroit is set to officially adopt the idea of shrinking the city. Though this has been done in other areas, Detroit will be the largest city to adopt the ideology. Should other depressed cities in similar situations (such as Cleveland) follow suit? Detroit wants to save itself by shrinking By Associated Press business staff March 08, 2010, 3:22PM After decades of decline that gutted many once-vibrant neighborhoods, Detroit is preparing a radical renewal effort on a scale never attempted in this country: returning a large swath of the city to fields or farmland, much like it was in the middle of the 19th century. Under plans now being refined, demolition crews would move through the most desolate and decayed areas of urban Detroit with building-chomping excavators, reducing houses to rubble. detroit-map.jpgView full sizeAssociated Press DETROIT -- Detroit, the very symbol of American industrial might for most of the 20th century, is drawing up a radical renewal plan that calls for turning large swaths of this now-blighted, rusted-out city back into the fields and farmland that existed before the automobile. Operating on a scale never before attempted in this country, the city would demolish houses in some of the most desolate sections of Detroit and move residents into stronger neighborhoods. Roughly a quarter of the 139-square-mile city could go from urban to semi-rural. More at: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/detroit_wants_to_save_itself_b.html

1 MILLION new jobs for Youngstown would be GREAT for the region! Again, I'm really, REALLY hoping that the city is able to make the most of it's geographic location.

^It seems as if they congregate to these areas over the winter, and when the ice thaws it shows how many fish died in these areas. There was a day a few years ago in late March/ early April when me and my fiance went to the lakefront between E.55th and E.79th on a warm day. Talk about an incredible amount of dead fish, associated with an incredible smell. If you're driving on the freeway during this particular time of year and had your window down, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. So we were done being grossed out, and went to a beach on the west side (past Lakewood, I believe- I'm not sure). This area of the lake didn't have the same problem, or the same smell.

^Agreed- Clueless gives a great explanation from a science standpoint.

^Thanks for that explanation. That makes sense... I guess the yearly dying off of fish around the beginning of spring which just so happens to be in the same area has something to do with the warming of water as well? If anyone has been down to the lakefront between E.55th and E.79th in early spring, you've no doubt seen the amount of dead fish in this specific area right after the lake thaws (and the continued feasting by the gulls). The same can be seen on the Cuyahoga in regards to dead fish around the end of March/ early April.

OUTSTANDING pics!

That's a TON of good news for the region within the last week or so! Good for Youngstown!!

I agree 100%! This will no doubt help stimulate the downtown economy. I don't know if it's too soon to say that we might see some new shops opening up along Euclid to meet some of the new demand, but I don't see why that wouldn't happen. Great Stuff!!

Actually, it has worked for us in the past. It may not work for us in the future, but we don't know that your plan will, either. Don't try to minimize the realities of my concerns. I don't know if any of the cities you mentioned faced the problems Cleveland is facing and the sheer percentage of people living the dream off of the government like we have here. And until you address my very real concerns, and have a plan in place to make sure it gets better, and not worse, you're going to get nowhere. Believe it or not, my views on these issues are relatively moderate compared to some of the people you're going to have to convince to get these changes put into place. :roll: Um... what?

This sounds like a smarter way to have this conversation. Find out which services people care more about saving a couple hundred dollars per year by merging than they do about local control and start there. If there aren't any, well then Clevelander17 is right. If people are happy to pay a premium level in taxes for hyper local control, no reason to stop them. But i think the city services debate is a bit of a distraction, because I doubt the savings per household would really be that mind blowing. The real prize for regional advancement has to do with economic development, property tax parity and land use. Do we really let municipalities sink under the weight of land use decisions made literally 100 years ago (e.g., very little commercial property in Shaker Hts)? Is it fair that Pepper Pike and points east zone out housing that is unaffordable to everyone but the upper middle class and above? [As an aside, if I hear Randall O'Toole or any other libertarian mention one more time how "planners" are scheming to force everyone live at higher densities when, in reality, most land use regulations dictate the exact opposite, I'm going to scream.] One other point -it is incredibly disingenuous to say that City of Cleveland's plight is the result of "mismanagement" and that the city should get its house in order before it "takes" resources from others. Unless you believe in a head tax instead of a progressive income tax, I suppose. If we want to talk about tax equity, my guess is that UH "takes" resources away from Hunting Valley (very high incomes) and Independence (franchise and other business taxes) through federal and state spending. And I don't understand this idea about Cleveland residents voting entitlements for themselves- TANF and public housing are federally funded, administered through the state and counties. If public housing is in Cleveland, it's because that's where it was sited 50-80 years ago, not because Cleveland voters voted themselves free housing. Thanks for pointing that out.

^That should be good for the neighborhood. That hideous, gutted Big Lots which has sat vacant for 10 years on Lakeshore is finally going to get renovated into something useful. I was at the City Planning Commission when this was presented a few months back, and the design of this is indeed something you would expect to see in a suburb like Solon (not necessarily a bad thing, concerning rec-centers), and should help add energy to this part of Lakeshore.

:roll: Opting for religious/private schools, when the city is lush with cash as you suggest, only suggests a fear of the population of students who attend the city's schools. The same happened to Euclid (though not as lush with cash) a few years back, which is now experiencing white flight. Like I said, this doesn't go too far. I'll keep my answers short since they've been mostly skipped over. What, those real differences won't go too far amongst the pro-regionalism, pro-Utopian crowd? It's not about race, it's about cultural differences. If you really want to take this debate to the next level, we can do it, as long as it remains mature. Well well well... what might the next level be? A debate without answers to prior responses isn't much of a debate in my opinion. Calling one suburb "more conserviative", isn't much of a cultural difference especially when considering mergers with other suburbs, based on your own prior responses, is not entirely out of the question. Merging services with Beachwood, South Euclid, or Shaker Heights? Good. Merging with Cleveland Heights? Bad. Amounts to annexation. "Cultural" differences. Wrong "demographics". Won't work.

The gulls also crowd together between the E.72nd and E.55th St exits on the lake. It's amazing to see the amount of birds in these areas. I know the lake is frozen over now, but these areas are the same places where we have the yearly dying off of fish in large numbers, no?

A shame that "cultural differences" can stop the merger of services, resulting in less duplication at all levels of government in the county, savings for taxpayers, funds allocated to regional needs, etc. Great.

^Seriously. Cultural differences, as in one suburb has a larger African American population than the other? "Contentious" school-district, as in, the school district is largely African-American, with the majority of students residing in Cleveland Heights while many University Heights students are sent to private schools? Yeah... that won't go too far here. Care to address anything else from the post you quoted me on?

^That's GREAT! Congrats!! This is the type of adaptive reuse that the city needs more of!

^^That's a double-standard. Why say that merging suburbs is realistic, when merging with the City of Cleveland is not? It's because of "leadership", and "ineffectiveness", right? As someone has pointed out before, the councilman in Cleveland Heights who brought up merging with University Heights had a direct rejection from the mayor of University Heights. These two cities share the same school district currently. But sharing services and boarders? Well, that for some reason is too much. I'll add emphasis to SOME REASON. Saying that Cleveland is a "clean-slate" is unrealistic. It would be, if there was enough money to clean the brownfields which litter countless properties from the east-side of the city to the west. It would be if we could renovate or demolish the THOUSANDS of vacant homes within the city currently, mostly from within the last 10 years. Truth is- we don't have a clean slate to work with. If we did, it would be a cake-walk to deal with. Come-on, people! This region isn't losing population SOLELY becuase of one-party rule, or SOLELY because of bad decisions which were actually under the control of local leadership. We are actually doing RATHER WELL, considering where we could be today. Manufacturing isn't our main regional industry any longer. Our unemployment rate is UNDER the national average. And I repeat- if you can come up with a year when the nation was in a recession and we were actually under the national unemployment average, in our lifetime, I'LL BUY YOU A BEER!!!! That is in part, because of leadership- both government and private, within the CITY OF CLEVELAND, The region's main employer. It is also because of regional cooperation, the likes of which hasn't been seen, EVER, within this region. Who is the leader in that? I'll give you a hint- it's not Beachwood, it's Cleveland. How can the reduction of taxes or redistribution of those tax dollars to other county needs, due to consolidation of ALL city services within Cuyahoga County, not be in the best interests of the residents who still live here? Is it because of Current leadership? Current Ineffectiveness? Bad decisions made within the last few years? Or is it because of a mindset which isn't so far moved from the current set up which we have now?

I don't know if calling the elected officials ineffective is fair. The city has it's share of strong (and weak) leaders, love em or hate em. Some of these leaders have been in city government for years, dealing with population and demographic shifts while trying their best to keep businesses within the neighborhoods. I don't know if it's possible to name some suburban leaders who have been through the same, especially regarding the City in it's current state. How much can the residents, seriously, expect from their City Council leaders? Can we expect thousands of jobs in South Collinwood? St. Clair-Superior? Slavic Village? Do we really want gentrification city wide? What happens to the current residents of the city who end up moving into the inner-ring because of displacement? Haven't we learned this with Hough and Glenville? Granted, some economic development and neighborhood redevelopment we can expect, and the city did receive during the beginning half of the last decade. However, much of the city's existing housing stock is in poor shape due to the housing crisis which, set the city back by YEARS. Remember the momentum the city had prior to? 1000+ new homes constructed in the city a year was the goal, which the city actually surpassed, if I'm not mistaken, at least once. I don't know if that truly qualifies as ineffectiveness by city officials, especially when they are NOT TO BLAME for the city's physical state. Economically, the county's (of which the City of Cleveland is the main employer) unemployment rate is lower than the national average. Name the LAST TIME THIS HAPPENED during a recession in our lifetime... and I'll buy you a beer! Can we blame these leaders for wanting what's best for the residents of their neighborhoods who elect them? I don't think we can entirely blame City Council for the concentrated poverty which has occurred due to a plethora of events, some which they could control, but most which they couldn't (take your pick from everything from the interstate highway system to demographic shifts to racial tension to student busing to you-name-it). As far as the entitlement argument, are we referring to Section 8 renters, welfare recipients, etc.? I can assure you that you will find individuals who are in this category county-wide, and not just within the City of Cleveland. In fact, the number of individuals who are receiving welfare and food vouchers is increasing throughout the county. You'll find Section 8 recipients in SHAKER HEIGHTS. I just don't buy the argument that the city's representatives are ineffective. They've dealt with more, much much more, than their suburban counterparts over the last 50 years.

I would have to agree that Cleveland is not the only city with "corrupt" individuals serving on city hall. In fact, WHO in City Council is corrupt (beyond normal politics)? Can we have names, the crimes committed, etc., or are we just assuming based on the losses suffered to the city? I don't think that going under the assumed premise that Cleveland is ran by corrupt individuals should fly on this forum. The City of Cleveland has problems, no doubt which we all know of. However, there isn't a suburb in this county which hasn't seen an increase in population loss, and it would seem probable that there has been a rise in crime due to the ongoing recession region-wide (heck, country-wide). It makes too much sense to consolidate services, however as pointed out before those at the top will try to slow down the momentum of this movement. However, WE THE VOTERS have the power to make change occur. I'm for getting together as a citizen coalition to help further this change if the newly elected county government does not (when they take office). How much discussion does this topic REALLY need? I think we can mostly (if not all) agree that, at the very least, overlapping municipal services should be merged. My question is if the City of Cleveland should merge boarders with suburban neighbors. It took Louisville 40 years for it's merger. This won't happen overnight here. I do remember an interview with Sam Miller a few years back in which he said he wanted to push for municipal consolidation... and that it would take 5 years minimum to get the word out. Well, it's been about 5 years since that interview, and we've gotten as far as discussions (not including the new county gov't, which may never have come into existence without the "corruption" of regional leaders who DON'T live in the City of Cleveland).

Good news!

OUTSTANDING PICS!!! I love these shots! Thanks!!

^I can see your point. But I have to add that the foreclosure crisis does not discriminate which side of the river one lives on. Old Brooklyn, for example, had 931 foreclosures between 2006-2008. Detroit Shoreway- 581 foreclosures between 2006-2008. Even a my beloved east side North Collinwood had over 800 foreclosures during the same time period. Granted, some of these neighborhoods haven't seen the amount of physical loss regarding the standing structures of homes in these neighborhoods, but they are vacant homes nonetheless. There will not be a neighborhood or inner-ring suburb in this census which will not seen loss- sans downtown. Which is why I say that this census HAS TO BE VIEWED AS A WAKE-UP CALL for the region, even if the last 5 or 6 were not. To be serious, I wouldn't be surprised if Cuyahoga County and Franklin County are, at the most, neck and neck population wise with this next census. I love Cleveland, and will never be a Cleveland basher (it's not in my genetic make-up LOL). But it's time that this region wakes up to reality- the way this county is fractured regarding services and government is NOT WORKING.

I'm hoping that Mike Brown is well used to working with Shaq, and won't have a problem changing the line-up when the big guy is ready to come back in the game. I'm sure Shaq will stay in shape while healing.

^I have no doubt that that number is at least *close* to being accurate. I work at a housing counseling agency, and can tell you firsthand of the destruction caused by the foreclosure crisis. Many of the East-Side nieghborhoods- Glenville, Hough, Fairfax, Slavic Village, St. Clair- All gutted. And I mean gutted. These homes used to house families- but now lay vacant. By the thousands. We also can't forget that we've gone through two recessions within the last 10 years, with the first being especially unfavorable to the region.