Hts121

That's because the diversification also proportionally parallels socio-economic changes in the neighborhood, and those changes/shifts are extrapolated when stable families (justifiably or not) pre-emptively pack up and move to the exurbs the second "there goes the neighborhood" crosses their minds.

/diatribe begin/ So long as diversification of a neighborhood (or its present diversity) is seen around here as a negative (just a fact... justified or not), there is little hope for large scale gentrification of the urban core. Cleveland is not and never will be a 'white city' a la Minneapolis or Portland. Drastic changes in attitudes, perceptions, and behavoir is needed from all Clevelanders (black, white, brown, yellow) or stagnation will remain the theme for some time. Everyone takes the 'easy out', with many simply pointing their fingers at a single lumped up racial group, thereby giving that group a reason to simply dismiss the finger pointing as racially motivated. When we realize we are all one community and not two communities that need to deal with our issues separately, we will have reached a much-needed starting point. We're not there yet, instead opting to spin our wheels aimlessly. /diatribe over/

I did what? Show me the post and I will be happy to explain to you how you are blatantly misinterpreting it. I think I've been involved in a constructive construction with both of them. Prior to your entrance, that is. FYI, I live here on Earth, but I come from a planet called Krypton.

So is the idea that seniority equals ability. I don't think anyone would argue that seniority is determinative of ability. I think the issue is whether pay should be determined by objective measures or subjective beliefs. It seems that finding a balance between those two is nearly impossible in this context or someone, somewhere would have proposed it. The unions want pay determined objectively, and seniority is the best way to do that. They inherently distrust management. And, you always have to remember, that the primary purpose of unions is and always has been to protect seniority. Management, of course, wants as much discretion and autonomy as it can get.

The deal would not have been Hickson straight up for JJ. We would have had to throw in Z and some picks as well. I also don't think the deal was as close to being done as some rumors have portrayed it to be. Phoenix was waffling for sure.

Observation noted, as it was a few hours back. Problem is, you are doing the same thing you are accusing us of. Who said 'how dare you generalize all blacks as criminals'? Show me the post. What we are talking about is solutions and WHY certain 'pragmatic' solutions would not be acceptable. We all agree that these flash mobs (or whatever term you find more appropriate) have been mostly, if not totally, limited to black youths. Noted. Recognized. It is a fact. But what is the point of continually emphasizing it? Like I said before, did you note the color of their hair, eyes, etc.? Why not? What other common denominator did these kids have? We need to evolve as a society from this notion that there are two separate communities (white and black) and each one needs to deal with their own problems. My goal (perhaps unrealistic, but I will persist regardless) is a society where skin color is no more a distinguishing feature than hair color or eye color. Now, moving on to solutions.... I agree with RnR. More security instead of more restrictions. And it appears police forces nationwide need to find a way to deal with these flashmobs.

The binding arbitration process only applies to safety forces and only because those employees are strike prohibited. Perhaps some tweaks could be made, but eliminating the process is a mistake because it is the best (albeit not ideal) manner of resolving impasse in negotiations. Under the current system, the table was slightly titled towards the employer (given the management rights provision of the current law). SB5 tilts the balance so heavily in favor of the employer that negotiating a CBA will be akin to having a hearing before the civil service commission - a waste of time and resources. Also, I'm not sure why the public employers would be so terrified given the statistics I posted in Reply #46. What they may be afraid of is being exposed. All cities say they are broke. All cities intentionally underestimate their revenues. It gives the mayor and council more leeway to pick up random projects and/or tout a surplus at the end of the fiscal year. Safety Force unions are very good at exposing this and effectively arguing to a 3rd party neutral that the City is not quite as broke as it claims to be. But, regardless, these 3rd party neutrals have been routinely siding with the Cities recently in recognition of the economic realities at present.

.... Anaheim of Los Angelos County Kings.

I agree with that, but again, as I stated earlier, it's not really relevant. What's relevant is that the behavior, no matter who's engaging in it, has to stop. It's not acceptable. The problem is that there may be strong correlations between the behavior and race, which means that when efforts are made to curb the behavior, some people get angry or offended because they feel like they're being targeted for reasons beyond their improper behavior, which simply isn't the case. Right. Nobody is saying it is acceptable. No one is saying efforts shouldn't be made to make it stop. The question then becomes how. Staying true to the bedrock principles of our country, I just simply can't support the notion that well-behaved black kids (of which there are PLENTY) would be denied the same rights and privileges as their white counterparts. I am not willing to eradicate this problem by doing an absolute injustice on those kids. It is not a sacrafice I am willing to make. It is not a sacrafice the law of our land would allow us to make. I would rather not have the fair at all than hang a big sign that says "Black Youths Not Admitted without Adult" or anything akin to that. It would be offensive to the very spirit of the Coventry Fair.... probably even more offensive than whatever these kids did at closing time last Sunday. If some want to view that as political correctness run amuck, then so be it.

^What do you think of the argument that a debt ceiling, in and of itself, is unconstitutional (in violation of the 14th Amendment)? I don't know if I am fully buying into that, but I think the closer we get to a deadline, the more you will hear this argument pop up.

To the generalizations discussed on the previous page, I believe you will find that in most cases (although certainly not uniformily) these characteristics of unlawfulness and lack of consideration have more to do with socio-economics than they have to do with race.

Good point in the last paragraph. I don't know about teachers, but there are PLENTY of cops and firefighters that get fired. As to the rest, I see your angles. That is why I said I don't see 'terribly persuasive' arguments for either side. It is a connundrum. For certain, you can't hold all teacher up to one standardized test. And, with a merit pay system, you have to worry about the teachers' needlessly brown-nosing superintendents and principals who may only last as long as the current political officials who control their job are in office. Personally, I find the system used by most cops and firefighters to be an effective alternative to a true merit pay system. Their base salaries are largely determined by rank (the Ohio constitution requires promotions within these civil service positions to be determined according to merit and fitness) but they also recieve what are called 'longevity payments' which corresponds to their senoirity.

Yep. But the pick has some protection to it. Lottery protected next year. Top 12 in 2013. And Top 10 in 2015-2017. If not used by then, it converts to a second round pick. So, it is somewhat realistic, that this is JJ for Caspi and 2017 2nd round pick. I'll still take it. Our jewish population is sure to love it.

You know people who believe that this type of behavoir adds to the culture or enjoyment of an art festival? May I suggest we leave the strawman arguments out of this? I do find your description of what happened to be the fairly accurate from the reports I heard. I was there for quite a bit and nobody was causing any problems from what I could see or photographed. At the very end, it appears a fight occured and that sent the whole crowd into a frenzy..... not so much with everyone fighting (which is why I take exception to the 'riot' label), but rather everyone running to find the fight. Then it just spiraled downward from there. I can envision that someone took exception to being shoved out of the way in the chaos and may have taken action against the person who they thought had disrespected them. I also can imagine that once the mob mentality took over, the crowd control measures caused even more chaos (not saying they weren't necessary at that point). I also take exception to the accusationt that these are CH kids causing all the problems. You are the third person I heard estimate the crowd at 1000-2000 kids. Unless every single CHHS kid was there, then the numbers don't add up.

Hickson for Omar Caspi and a future 1st rounder? I'd probably do it. I like Caspi a lot and think he has been underutilized in Sacramento. He has a bit of an ego, but then again so does JJ. We need a swing player and have a glut of power forwards. We also have been rumored of being interested in Caspi for years. It's not a home run, but it makes sense IMHO. I don't know if we can do much better for JJ. http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2011/06/cavs_may_trade_jj_hickson_to_k.html

Now that is something that we can all agree with. Which is why I was glad to see that CH added a fine for the parents as well as punishment for the juveniles.

Clevelander17 - It's not 'acceptable' in Cleveland Heights. It's not 'acceptable' in nearby communities. I don't know of any community that 'accepts' unruly behavoir. You have different levels of it, mostly dependent on socio-economic factors, but nobody accepts it. I suggest we discuss the problem, not your perceptions of how others view it. When someone posts something along the lines of "you all are crazy... there is no problem here that needs to be addressed" then you can go on your rant and I will join you. TBideon - I think they did go over different ideas and suggestions. In the end, they came up with the solution they thought would best work AND, more importantly, stays within legal limits. CH doe not desire to bring Arizona type shame and ridicule on a City that embraces and is renowned for its diversity. As to your disappointment in an alleged failure to acknowledge that black kids cause all of these problems, I think some of us at least want to make a good faith effort to follow the lead of Dr. King and judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

You both are correct, depending on how you look at it.

Again, I'm confused as to what you are saying? No, you are not a racist for pointing out that the instigators of the fight at the Coventry Street Fair were at least mostly young blacks. I think that is pretty undeniable. But were all black kids causing trouble at the fair? Cerrtainly not. Is your preferred solution to ban young black kids from attending the street fair? Please expand. Did you do any analysis on their eye colors? I bet they were all brown and those poor blue eyed folks are forced to suffer. How about we just let blonde's in because the people causing the trouble all seem to have dark hair? Should Vancouver ban white people from its sports venues? As to the airport screenings, you can either do them on everybody or do them on nobody. That's not political correctness. That is Uncle Sam following the dictates of our constitution. And by now you should realize that not all terrorists are Arab. We have the Jacob Laufer's and Underwear Bobmers and Tim McVail's to worry about too. Let me just say that if you separate and segregate, this will only get worse.

The American dream is dead?

If I can sum this up, are you simply saying that racial profiling should be allowed and utilized whenever practical? Is that your solution? Should every member of one race suffer because of the actions of a few? Should you pay reparations for slavery? Don't confuse political correctness with staying within the bounds of our constitution.

Nobody's 'making excuses', Clevelander17. Let that one go and the conversation can progress. Simply by saying this is nothing new or that it goes on elsewhere (see much, much, much worse russian video I posted a couple pages back) is not to excuse the behavoir, but simply to point out that it is not somehow unique to CH, as you continue to imply.

^^That's kind of vague. I would say that, as with any diverse neighborhood, you always have had and always will have "something that scares some potential visitors from our business districts and something that deters many potential home buyers from even considering the area." For those who won't consider buying, it is usually because they want a more suburban, more homogeneous setting. For those who won't visit, it's their loss. But I don't blame them. The prices at Beachwood Place scare me away from visiting and there is something about Westlake that deters me (and many others) from even considering the area. To each his own.

I think your problem is just with kids in general..... a sign that you are getting older. There is nothing unique going on in CH. And, with the social media tools available today, I could definitely see these kinds of instances happening back in our day. As a matter of fact, they did happen. I remember the bicenteniel problems in the Flats, the Brush HS riot, the CH-SH rumble at Shaker HS, a nasty one between some Iggy kids and CH kids involving baseball bats, the Mentor HS football game riot.... all around the the mid-90's May I suggest taking some advice from that wise fellow of the 'custodial arts', Carl - "The kids haven't changed... you have." It seems for just about every American, the older you get, the more you frown upon the younger generations. Pretty soon you will be one of those old guys in a moose hat shaking your fist and telling everyone who will listen that this country is 'going to hell in a handbasket' and that you used to be able to buy [fill in the blank] for a nickel. All that said, I do encourage efforts to control unruly behavoir and this specific incident (given last year and the escalating problem social media is fueling) definitely deserved a very firm reaction.

For some needed balance in this thread.... Why economists see a stronger second half for 2011 WASHINGTON (AP) -- Farewell and good riddance to the first half of 2011 -- six months that are ending as sour for the economy as they began. Most analysts say economic growth will perk up in the second half of the year. The reason is that the main causes of the slowdown -- high oil prices and manufacturing delays because of the disaster in Japan -- have started to fade. "Some of the headwinds that caused us to slow are turning into tail winds," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Analytics. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Why-economists-see-a-stronger-apf-3447087896.html?x=0