BlauBaum

My experience of OTR has been that the people passing through are the people causing problems. I know this is not always the case, but in my little corner of the Rhine, the neighbors we know are very polite and friendly and the street is quiet for the most part. I have had a couple times where people were parked in a car blasting music, but a quick call to the police roused them out of there back where they came from. The two most annoying things to me are the prostitutes at night on the street corner, and the litter. We've been living here for over two years, and we love it! :-D

Apparently, the building has its interiors intact (woodwork, etc...) as well. Really, not worthy of demolition at all. The neighborhood surrounding it is probably the biggest impediment to redevelopement.

AWESOME photos! I think in #7 you can see Cincinnati City Hall. Not familiar with Mound St. but it seems like from that perspective all of this neighborhood was Queensgate/West end, and was eventually rased for I-75? What a shame. I also just love seeing so many people walking around. Really gives you a sense of what downtown was like. Thanks for posting them!

Unfortunately Ram, I don't think that council was voted in based on its pro-streetcar position. Most folks in the city don't CURRENTLY understand how the streetcar will benefit them. They see it as more government subsity being thrown at the inner city. This is why I think it is really important that Cincinnatians for Progress not only are really vocal in saying why the streetcar is beneficial, but also reaching out to all the community councils and neighborhood groups. We've got to tell them this is not being funded by a tax levied on you, this is going to increase tax revenue for the city--which can be used on your neighborhood projects, this will decrease crime by putting more people back into these areas, and hell, one day you might actually get a streetcar line into your neighborhood!! If this message is not communicated to people outside of Downtown, OTR, Clifton, the referendum stands a good chance of passing, IMO.

“We believe the NAACP was mistaken to think opposing the streetcar was only possible by petitioning against all forms of passenger rail transit,” the Beacon wrote. “This could have been either an oversight by the NAACP, or an anti-transit political maneuver. Either way, we acknowledge the petition drive has the right intent, but the wrong language and we hereby call on all interested parties to act now.” Aha! So, the Beacon and the Boyband are out! Hopefully more and more people will catch on to what this petition is really about--and it's dangers. Does anyone know what the implications of changing the wording are? In other words, if Smitherman tries to make the petition more palatable to people who support light rail, would that nullify all the signatures they've collected?

^ I hope Cincinnati is somehow associated with Graeter's nationally in its packaging and advertising. It's great to hear that they are doing well, but it would be cool if we were nationally known for having amazing ice cream! :yap:

Sorry buddy...you're prayers have fallen on deaf ears. :angel:

Well put Lincoln! The people of this neighborhood, and their community councils do not want this massive light and noise polluter, and they will not benefit from the use of public funds to build it. Who will benefit from these funds--the developer. What would benefit them? Increased property values due to new development in those neighborhoods. What put an end to those before they've been built? This terminal.

Wow! Thanks again to Michael, Holly and Stacy for the tour last night. :clap: It was a great time. I think what really impressed me most was the Mottainai project by B2B. Please, anyone going down on Saturday, don't miss this building. While I really appreciated the other projects for their spaces (Goodfellows Hall had a stunning three storied space that was breathtaking) as well as for their reuse of existing building elements, Mottainai had developed a much richer language of materials and detailing. Because it was my first extensive tour of Gateway, I don't know if this is characteristic of them or if it was just because they were dealing with a pretty simple palate of a building (versus Lackman which is a polychromatic orgy of a brick building, dripping with ornament--dont' miss the staircase in this building!!). Lincoln makes a good point about the benefit of having multiple developers rehabbing these buildings. Just like the neighborhood itself, housing options need to be diverse. While everyone on the tour seemed convinced that the 14th and Vine building will fill the market demand for newly constructed units (and they were VERY NICE units), I still feel like it fell short on the design side. The developer/architect really had an opportunity to flex their muscles, because they were not confronted with the challenges of working around an existing structure. It's tough though, as any architect will tell you, to do a new project in the midst of such an amazing context, but I don't think the strategy of "blending in" will ever work. You have to understand the context, maybe nod to it, and then innovate. One aspect of 14th and Vine that we kind of scooted by (is that the proper term for travel when one is on a segway?) that actually accomplished this is the storefronts. From what I've read, they will open up completely like garage doors made of glass. That's the kind of understanding of the urban context and innovation based on that understanding that I would like to see in future new construction in OTR.

It is in the way of one of the proposed paths of the Brent Spence addition/update. Unfortunately, the company has already said if they couldn't occupy this building, they would have to look elsewhere for suitable space--specifically outside of the City of Cincinnati. Possibly Kentucky. :(

I'd like to add my two cents into this conversation as well. As a member, and resident of the Brewery District, and a "part time" developer, myself and my business partner purchased our buildings on the corner of Findlay and Logan Street over two-and-a-half years ago. We've received no city assistance, and have done our best to renovate one of our buildings (which we are currently finishing up). We purchased these buildings not because of any street car proposal, but because of an enormous asset you guys seem to be over looking--FINDLAY MARKET. I wholeheartedly support the streetcar, but it is not the reason most of us have taken huge risks in our lives to be a part of this neighborhood--not me, Mike, Steve, Wirtz, any of us who have been down here for some time now. Thanks Michael for bringing up this point--the streetcar will be a tremendous help to our neighborhood, but PLEASE don't devalue the our reasons for investing in an already amazing neighborhood! You are playing into all the naysayers arguments that this is a streetcar to "nowhere". THIS ISN'T NOWHERE! The reason 3CDC succeeded and is succeeding is not only an amazing pot of public and private funds, but the sheer critical mass that these funds allowed them to achieve. I think it made sense for them to start where they did to cash into proximity to the CBD, but they could definitely have been successful up near the market. Developement like ours in the Brewery District are currently islands, and that is the problem, not that we don't have effective transit options.

I would contend that Washington Park is more like Central Park in that it is located in the urban core. Clifton is more of an inner-ring "first suburb". Although, I think dmerkow is right that Lincoln Park was a better analogy. STILL, the respect, importance, and patronage of Central Park should be given to Washington Park. So, back on topic...wow those are some hot, eye candy renderings. I can only imagine what it will be like to have that glass facade up there on Race! I think I'm actually starting to salivate...

Indeed! I don't think we should support a project for a private company that is GROSSLY funded by us, the public. Why not use public money for a project that a neighborhood wants which could directly benefit it and is owned by the public. I wonder if we could find one of those...gee I don't know, HOW ABOUT THE STREETCAR?! I think Cincinnatians for Progress, should hook up with the various neighborhood groups, and form an aliance against this thing. Then in turn, CFP could use their help and support for the upcoming Charter battle (which I assume people have basically taken for granted is going to happen) within the Westside. :yap:

Detroit was also an industrial city, and look where blindly catering to industry got them? I totally disagree with the point of view that if something was historically an industrial area, it should always be that way. We have to accept the fact that we are in a completely new world economically. Industrial investments do not always result in jobs for local people and benefit the city as a whole. Nor should industrial investments get priority over parks and views. I would much prefer having hundreds of new HOMES built, with new, tax paying city residents in them than 40 possible jobs and a ton of noise and light polution. There's a lot of activity going on behind the scenes in Sedamsville and Lower Price Hill that this developement could destroy--not to mention making life a lot harder to live by being located in the shadow of this thing.

Who is to say that jobs generated by this project will even be filled by people in that area!!! The conglomeration of businesses that are proposing this project employ less than 10 people who live in the City of Cincinnati as is! All of these promises that the developer is making are extremely suspect. Also interesting, is that the folks at Cincinnati Bulk Terminals (who have been in business in Cincinnati for over 100 years, and aren't occupying a site which is prime for developement) claim to be able to quickly modify their operation to fill the need this development would serve. I think it is very dangerous to circumvent the will of the community councils on a project like this, to use land which has so much potential, for a project requiring so much public funding, with so many empty promises, for a need which existing facilities can potentially meet! (sorry for the run-on) :-o

I think it's important to point out that this project is seeking the gross majority of its funding from the Stimulus Package. Not only from the stimulus package, but from pots of money that could be used to fund something more useful--namely the streetcar. I've been told--and maybe someone can correct me on this--that the project will be 23 million dollars, and they are asking for 20 million?

That proposition may not make sense to you, but what about someone who works downtown (such as myself) parking at their normal place and taking the street car to Enzo's or Tucker's for lunch, or to do some shopping at Findlay market? That seems very plausible.

Dan, may I ask why you are against development in OTR--assuming you are speaking for yourself as well as others? If you are unsure about the plausibility of this plan helping OTR, it's not a new idea. The same idea is applied in suburban malls, and casino developments. You have anchors (CBD and UC) and those support/draw traffic to everything in between. The fact that this plan will connect already successful stops in OTR (Findlay Market, Gateway Quarter, etc...) actually adds to its viability. The fact is, the City cannot afford to let OTR lose moment and slip back into decline. The future of this city is dependant on the future of its core. Why not ensure everyone's future, including the two destinations you've already said you support connecting with rail??

The lack of information period is a little disconcerting, and one can only say that "news will be coming" so often before the smokescreen blows away. That's true for any project, and the lack of news for the Cincinnati streetcar project is a little disappointing but large projects such as this can take time. I'm glad you guys are addressing this issue. I commented on it a few pages back and was overlooked for a response. I understand that this is an incredibly charged issue, and it takes a lot of maneuvering to make these deals happen, but the silence IS DEAFENING. I think it would really help the Cincinnatians For Progress case if there were some evidence that--as Sherman put it--we are sooo close. Why have all this effort wasted?! Why throw all the money already lined out (assuming that something is lined up)?! :?

So, does anyone have any feeling as to whether the City is taking the stance that this ballot initiative will happen, and they are just gearing up for the campaign against it? Or are there still funding efforts underway? The lack of info as to what's happening is very disconcerting. I personally, have never been approached about putting the Anti-Progress Amendment to the voters, but I presume that is because I hang out in places which would directly benefit from the streetcar. 8-)

"That stepped up enforcement will come with the redevelopment of the Park. Keep in mind that the park will be more than just a beautification effort, but will resemble the Fountain Square Project that brings event after event. There will always be something going on in Wash. Park and the status quo will not remain." :clap: That's great to hear. It really is the programming and leasing that makes Fountain Square a successful project (architecturally, it's not that groundbreaking beyond the led glass wall). Having people in Washington Park (which is our Central Park, and should be regarded as such) will go a long way to clean it up. Every time I walk by I notice all the embedded wrought iron in the concrete curbs along the edge of the park, and think how beautiful it would be if that ornate iron work were still there. Back to the topic at hand, I do wonder about 3CDC's intentions North of Liberty. I wonder if housing these people at Odeon is part of an agenda to push them North, or just a compromise with OTRCH to keep people in the neighborhood. The ideal situation, in my opinion, would be that they help finance a relocation to a more another area all together. Perhaps somewhere more...suburban?

I don't think it being a wet or dry shelter matters to 3CDC. What matters to them is that they are pushing these people further North. I wonder if evenetually, the Brewery District will be the dumping ground and South of Liberty will be "The New Over-the-Rhine" supported by 3CDC. McMicken is absolutely correct though. These folks are going to continue their destructive habits as long as they are surrounded by an environment that enables them. And those habits include hanging around Washington Park doing stuff they shouldn't be doing. It would be nice if the police actually enforced liqour laws in the park, then these people would HAVE to use Drop Inn's courtyard.

Did anyone catch the 12 Newsmakers interview with Greg Harris this morning? I was wondering if any good press was given to the Streetcar Proposal.

Speaking of the media and the streetcar, Fox19 had a very nice piece about the Brewery District this evening, and Steve Hampton mentioned the potential of the streetcar in revitalizing the neighborhood. You can find the original piece, as well as extended footage here: http://www.fox19.com/Global/category.asp?C=132741 WAY TO GO STEVE!! :wave:

The official party should most definitely be somewhere on the proposed route! :wink: