I Went West

That's another thing to consider. Totally forgot about that. Seattle doesn't have a city income tax (even though one is proposed there's no way it'll go through) and Washington State no income tax. Sales tax is high at 10%. Cleveland has a city income tax and Ohio an income tax. From what I can tell is that Cleveland has a 2.5% rate and the state 4.5%. Is that correct? At an average salary of $100k, that's around $500/month in local and state taxes. Is it possible, as a concession, to not charge city and state income tax on Amazon employees?

You guys are greatly underestimating the amount of space Amazon is looking for. When they're done building out within the next five years in Seattle they'll have 12 million square feet within the downtown area. And they're looking for HQ2 to be equal to what they'll have in Seattle That's nearly TEN Key Towers.

Sorry KJP, but I've worked at Amazon, live in downtown Seattle, know many working at Amazon, and have monthly meetings on the Amazon campus. Amazon is maxed out in Seattle. Until you actually see it, it's hard to believe how many buildings are required to hold 50k employees. Bezos and Amazon make their own rules. Building a HQ2 is smart - it gives you leverage once HQ2 is up and running to use the two cities against each other with the threat of fully moving to the other. He's such a visionary that I bet he's already thinking about a HQ3. The main goal with HQ2 is to attract employees that aren't interested in moving to Seattle. And you know what the average age is at the Seattle HQ? About 30 years old. Think cities with a younger population. Cities with outdoor activities. Cities with good weather. Cities with a night life. Cities with other companies to move to once you're done with Amazon (as of last year the average employee stayed two years). The average employee at Amazon doesn't care about buying a house, settling down, starting a family, and staying at the company for 30 years. It's all about having a good time and growing your career. To do that you need a strong tech community outside Amazon. Amazon sees HQ2 as an opportunity to move to another city and poach some talent. They've hired everyone they're wanted from Microsoft. It's time to move to another city and steal talent from another companies.

Ummm......fundamentally, they are in retail. Of course they don't have that day off. Seattle also artificially increased their minimum wage. Ummm, so how is an engineer or program manager working in AWS in retail? Or a producer working in Amazon Video? Or a music curator working in Amazon music? Artificially? Huh? And what does minimum wage have to do with anything? The 50k jobs have an average wage of $100k. It's mind blowing to me that one would assume that Amazon jobs are in "retail" - and it's that lack of knowledge which would hamper many of these less educated and techie cities from drawing Amazon.

Ummm......fundamentally, they are in retail. Of course they don't have that day off. Seattle also artificially increased their minimum wage. Ummm, so how is an engineer or program manager working in AWS in retail? Or a producer working in Amazon Video? Or a buyer working in Amazon music? Artificially? Huh? And what does minimum wage have to do with anything? The 50k jobs have an average wage of $100k.

Amazon is notorious for their frugal and non philanthropic ways. It was a shock that Amazon allowed a women's shelter to remain in an an old building that was on a lot they purchased downtown for a year until it was torn down. An even bigger shock when Amazon set aside space for it in one of their new buildings. Amazon has the worst vacation policy of any company out there. Their employees don't have the Friday off after Thanksgiving. Charitable matching? Bereavement time? Hahaha. Not at Amazon. Quality of life is not even a topic at Amazon and never has been. Bezos could care less about the social or quality of life impact on an existing city they'll have. He's not wired that way and it's what makes him so successful.

Originally from Cleveland, been living out in Seattle for nearly 17 years now. Live in the heart of Amazonia. Very fortunate to have benefited from the Amazon boom (my condo is $300k up in value over the last two years). Have actually worked at Amazon so know the culture there. (hint - it's tough but worth it) Amazon's number one issue is attracting talent. Bezos is a genius, more so than Gates or any other tech titan is or was, and you can bet he'll hire that 50k. Amazon wants to attract more and needs a city with better weather or access to a different pool of talent. So either a place with different weather than Seattle (think sun) or a different visa policy (Canada). Word around Amazon is that it's either somewhere in Texas or Toronto. As much as you guys like to think Cleveland has a shot, it doesn't. Cleveland could literally pay to build the campus (not like they need the money, the cost to build out is less than 1% of their market cap), give it to Amazon free, and Amazon still wouldn't locate HQ2 in Cleveland. It just doesn't compete on any level.

Hasn't IKEA been looking for 20 years now in greater Cleveland? There's so much vacant space in the area. Had they truly wanted to been in Cleveland they would have made something work by now. With cbus opening in 2017 I'd wager than the odds of Cleveland getting an IKEA is low sadly.

Beautiful pictures. You got a lot in for a day!

Little ITaly is great, one of the best things about Cleveland

Agreed. Here in Seattle rents have gone up so much the last few years that all you see being built are new apartments. The rents got high enough where the banks felt comfortable making loans again. Not the case for condo prices. Believe it or not rising and high rents promote more apartments.

I have to agree with ColDayMan, Milwaukee is a better comparison than Philly. Philly has 6.1 million in the urban area, Milwaukee has 1.7 million, and Cleveland has 2 million. Philly is nearly three times the size of Cleveland whereas Milwaukee is within 15%. Comparing Cleveland to Philly is like comparing Toledo to Cleveland.

If there's such a long list of those wanting to rent, IMO it's not so much a supply and demand issue, but rather it's an issue of not setting the rents at a high enough price.

I think the "most recommended" comment sums it up nicely: "I grew up in Akron in the 60's and 70's and now live in Columbus which is probably the only city in Ohio where there is some semblance of job growth - and hope. Columbus has been steadily growing over the last 20 years thanks in large part to Ohio State University. Buckeye Graduates know well in advance that it is pointless to return to Akron, Canton, Warren, Dayton, or Portsmouth. NO JOBS. So they stay in the greater Columbus area and plug-away in $30K per year jobs hoping to climb into $40K, maybe even $50K per year positions. In the state of Ohio, $50K per year is a damn good paying job. When Lebron left the Cleveland Cavaliers it hurt because the team was guaranteed to lose for years -- but it mostly hurt because his departure was a reminder to Ohioans that the grass is always greener anywhere but Ohio. He made us face that reality and we didn't like it. "

I think I'm with the majority of those who are rooting against LeBron to win in that I'm pissed about HOW he left, not WHY. Had it been just a simple press release I think most would eventually come to agree with it, but it was "The Decision" brought on all the hatred.

Tear down the Detroit Theatre for a McD's? Say it ain't so.

City pride - it's different, so many people (at least in Seattle) don't have an emotional attachment to the city like Clevelanders do. Many people here weren't born here so they see things from both sides of the fence. As far as historic preservation, there's not nearly the amount of older buildings out west as in a city like Cleveland. If there was a threat for a developer to tear one down, another developer would come forward with the cash to redevelop it. Problem is in Cleveland is that there are thousands of buildings to renovate yet no one really interested (and has the $$$) in redeveloping them. The opposite is true out west.

Amen brother. Stanley isn't worth saving, but the Columbia is a nice building. If someone with enough cash can save it, great! If not, that's a bummer.

The City of Cleveland needs the casino more than the casino needs The City of Cleveland.

Bring the Stanley and Columbia Building down. I hate to see it happen, however it's needed for the greater good. Be overjoyed that Gilbert chose to renovate the Higbee Building rather than building somewhere else. He's doing his part to increase the activity downtown, it's within his right to be able to knock down a building or two. Sorry guys, but you can't have it both ways (unless you have the $$$).

The REAL reason the flats failed: LOL

Wonderful post. I worked at Jacobs Field for the first nine years and those teams of the mid-late 90s were a blast. The average Friday night routine was working at a game, sneaking downstairs and taking a shower in the ushers changing room, then going over the flats and spending all the money we just made at the game. Good memories.

Have you considered the Kamms Corner neighborhood?

I don't think it's the weather, not at all. But I do think there's a definite "grass is greener" attitude in those who move out. Cleveland is the butt of so many jokes, locally and nationally. Growing up in Cleveland there's a "I'd love to move away from Cleveland but I'm stuck here" attitude that so many have. It's infectious. I moved from Cleveland to Seattle within the last census, my main reasons were: -Lack of a new age economy in Cleveland -All my friends were moving away from Cleveland, as well as family -Attitude of people in Cleveland, bitter, close minded, and defensive -I like outdoor activities - Boston Mills, Lake Erie, and the Metroparks just weren't cutting it -Living in a declining metropolis is depressing, no hope for Cleveland to turn the corner Those are the main reasons I moved away; I'm sure it's different for everyone. Please take what I said with a grain of salt. It's only my personal opinion. :-)

That's a good a reason as any to move out. It was my parents main motivation to move out of the West Park area in the early 80's - so I wouldn't have to attend Cleveland city schools.