RiverViewer

What's a trinity streetscape standard?

C-Dawg, I can tell you that if you let yourself go, and spend some time with him, nobody delivers his words as well as Dylan does. You're a lot farther along than most - you see the poetry. But I promise you, you're missing out on so much, until you see past what he sounds like at first, and let that rasp speak to you... It doesn't come all at once, but if you give yourself permission to let him sink in, you'll be giving yourself an invaluable treasure. But, most certainly, he ain't a guitarist! Sorry to hijack the thread, David!

All I can say is, it's your loss, my friends...I've spent I don't know how many countless hours in heaven listening to Dylan...music isn't about perfection - perfect voices or perfect guitars or perfect performances - it's about emoting...and ain't nobody can out-do Dylan for that. Pure poetry, in the words, the music, and the performance...

Back when the Queen City Soapbox blog was still around, Chris Anderson had this post on the Eastern Corridor...it sounds like what John is saying: Railroad to Nowhere by Chris Anderson Wednesday, June 11th, 2003 Rail transit is far from dead in Cincinnati. The Business Courer reports that momentum is building for an eastern rail line using existing tracks. It would use diesel locomotives rather than electric vehicles. That combined with the current freight line, would dramatically reduce the capital costs. All well and good. This proposal has been favored for a number of years by Commissioner Todd Portune, back to his days on City Council. It also has the support of John Dowlin, who knows more about east side transportation issues than any other politician. The line is part of the Eastern Corridor Study, the exhaustive (and exhausting, if you've participated in the planning sessions) study of transportation alternatives for the east side. During my time in Milford, we even twisted the arm of a developer to reserve property for a future terminal station. Ironically, the Milford experience points to the biggest problem with this proposal. The land set aside is in the Milford Commerce Park, far removed from Milford's concentrated population, in the midst of office buildings, a car dealership, and a Target store. Not a walkable environment at all. Unfortunately, that's largely true for about 95% of the line. The picture shows a corridor of 1/4 mile on each side of the proposed line. A quarter-mile is the accepted rule of thumb for how far an average person will walk to a transit stop. The brown spots are buildings of all types: houses, stores, factories...but mostly houses. What's striking to me about the picture is how much of the rail line goes through areas where buildings are absent or lower in density. Simply put, there aren't many people in proximity to this line, and few people means fewer riders. The only areas approaching urban densities are Columbia-Tusculum (near the sharp curve) and Fairfax & Mariemont (the barbell area). In the latter case, the distance to the rail line is frustrated by a steep bluff between the houses and the railroad. Overall, this is a mature area, so the land not already built upon is unlikely to ever be developed (the Little Miami floodplain is a big reason). Light rail in Cincinnati has been criticized as a pipe dream, a way for urban dilettantes to spend other people's money imitating Portland. I'm not convinced that's the case in general, but I'm also not sold on this proposal. I'd hate to see Cincinnati implement a rail line in an area with so little urban population, only to have it starve for riders. Tim Reynolds, director of Strategic Planning at SORTS, hints at that: "DMUs are essentially as expensive as (overhead electric) light rail vehicles," he said. "You don't need the infrastructure or the wires, but it's all expensive." The unspoken companion to that thought is the fewer riders, the bigger the subsidy. Proving that rail transit works with a demonstration project may be the best way to build support for an expanded system. My fear is that if the eastern line flops, it will queer the deal permanently. With so little population in the corridor, a flop is all too likely.

X, those maps rock...

Wow - I go past that all the time, and that's a ton of progress!

Yeah, offending folks on an internet forum is what Michael believes is the root problem in OTR. Again, a nice, fair summary of his position. Honestly, I do wish you would run for council - I'd vote for you again and donate to your campaign again - but I understand why you wouldn't - hell, I wouldn't dream of it. But "politician" wasn't a rip at all - pointing out that you continue to argue positions nobody's stated - that was the point.

Wow. I wonder how many businesses survive for the long haul when they blame the consumer when business isn't strong and then get offended if the consumers tell them they could improve their product...wow... Or how long politicians can survive when they argue against things folks haven't actually said. If you think pissed off, departing business owners who leave after horrific experiences with OTR (and let's not forget I lived there for five years, too) are what's tearing down OTR, you're out of your mind. Yeah, that's a fair summary of Michael's position. Christ.

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people." Quote me one. Just pick one such person. If Nick doesn't chime in - my brother (age 27), a graphic designer would be one. He moved to Columbus a couple of months ago. My friend (age 25) would be another. He's an artist, and is moving to Philly. Another 28 year old graphic design person I know moved to San Diego awhile back. A good friend of mine, an actuary (age 25) moved to San Franciso in 2002 or so. Another friend, 26, moved to Chicago. .... I could go on and I'm not even all that popular :p. One day I found myself in a place where all my friends moved away. Luckily I met some new folks who are just as block headed as me and won't move :). Look - I'm hopeful as anyone else and I'm not leaving tommorrow. I think Michael and some others are doing an amazing job. I'm starting to wish I never started this thread, cause yea, it's negative and a downer. On the other hand, we need to look at this sort of stuff seriously and try not to gloss it over. If you picked up OTR and plopped it down in any number of other cities, the leadership would probably do a much better job making it a safe, profitable, vibrant neighborhood. I just don't have the faith I used to have that all the pieced will come together for a turnaround. Certainly it's not all up to government - but they play a big part regardless of the product down there. All that being said... Coopers makes a mean fish sandwich, so I suggest you visit and get one yourself. You completely misread what I was saying, just as Nick has completely misread this thread. I was asking him to name one person on this board who doesn't think Cincinnati "has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people." I haven't seen anyone say that. It's a mischaracterization of the entire conversation, he's arguing against a straw man. What I've seen everyone agreeing on so far is: 1) We're losing young people, and that's bad. 2) A thriving Main Street would be great for this city. 3) An entertainment district is important to many folks in the creative class. What I've seen questioned here is: 1) Exactly how many young people are we losing? The 28K figure appears to be inflated by nearly three times from any data any of us can turn up. We'd love to see the figures Citybeat quoted so we can figure out where the discrepancies are. 2) What's the best way to achieve a thriving Main Street? Just bring security and folks will come? Alter the product and folks will come? Market to the suburbs, or market to the city folks? 3) How important is a pure entertainment district to the young creative folks? Is it truly make-or-break, or are the current dispersed offerings sufficient? When you take people who agree with you on the big items (young people are leaving; Main Street is important; entertainment districts are good) and mischaracterize what they've plainly stated, it really, really turns people off. At least it does me. He said, "a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people." He's arguing against a position nobody stated. We're all on the same side here, and that kind of mischaracterization is completely unhelpful.

Definitely, very fun! Great people-watching thread too! And it's great to see the Queen City Rainbow Band came up for it...I believe they march in all the Cincinnati Pride events, as well as some other things, like the Northside 4th of July Parade...

...ah, young people... (Though if you're referring to his guitar-playing skill, I'm with you...hell, he'd be the first to agree with you!)

Woo frickin' hoo! How cool is it not to have lost a single titanic struggle in June? Enjoy your first 2006 game tomorrow, and I'll dig the hell out of my third...the Reds have lost the previous two my wife and I have been to, so we've got one more chance - if they lose on Friday, that's gotta be it for the season for us...

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people." Quote me one. Just pick one such person.

Dude, I completely dig that shirt/sweatshirt thing...completely 70's vibe to it with those three stripes - that rocks out...very cool...

Yes, yes, and yes, I understand, farmers drive too. My grandparents lease their fields to a farmer who does a lot of places all over town. But 90 miles commuting every single day? There's no way. There's no way times three. Besides which, as we've seen, 90 miles plus 70 miles plus 30 miles doesn't come close to $720/month. If someone has an example of a farmer who does drive 90 miles back and forth to his fields every day, I'm all ears - but farming is such a low-margin business, you have to save money every way you turn to make a living; and the hours required are so long that blowing two hours in the car every day is even less realistic than it is for an office job. Driving 90 miles a few times a year? Sure. Driving 90 miles once a week? Perhaps. But every day? Honestly?

That does blow - I mean, you spend good money, and not getting what was promised - I'd be annoyed as well...is he non-responsive to complaints?

Yeah, a few details would be helpful...otherwise we pretty much have a post that says, "this guy who's investing in the city is bad..."

Thanks for the thorough rundown...and it seems like your figures agree with what I saw from census data - the figure of 28K people leaving is, as yet, completely unsubstantiated. Nick, again, do you have a link for that Citybeat quote, or any citations for data? As I said, I have no doubt we're losing young people, and I agree completely with you about the city needing to grow the creative class (or else I wouldn't have given your campaign $100 and voted for you) - I'm just looking for hard data, and nothing anyone's turned up so far substantiates the claims you quoted from Citybeat.

Yeah, the Outer View Level is cheaper ($5 vs. $9), but you can't buy those in advance - only available day of game. Although reading it, it says they're only available day of game, unless most other seats are sold, which means you can still plan in advance to sit there if there's any chance they might not be available...I should have read more closely...

Sorry I went all anal on that...just one of my major pet peeves - journalists have no frickin' clue how to deal with numbers, how to explain them, or how to reality-check them... CornerCurve, I'd add to your point that sprawl is also helping alleviate the issue for many folks...so many new office parks are built outside the center city (Sharonville in Cincinnati, Polaris in Columbus, Independence in Cleveland) that people can live in rural areas and still be gainfully employed with long commutes, but not insane commutes. 45 minutes from Mt. Orab to Loveland, say, instead of an hour plus to downtown Cincinnati...and that's only going to continue.

She drives her Pontiac Grand Am from Pamona to the Farm Bureau in Des Moines every day. Google maps calls that 37.5 miles each way, but we'll trust her number of 45 miles. A 1994 Grand Am gets 29 mpg highway, which is basically what this drive is. 22 working days in a month, so at $2.75 (which is more than they show her paying in the clip - she's paying $2.659 in the story), that works out to $187.76. (90m * 22d / 29mpg * $2.75) He drives his Cavelier 70 miles round-trip, from Pamona to a plumbing gig in Des Moines. I guess riding in together is impossible? But, with a teenager and an 11 year old looking son, maybe his hours are too long. Anyway, a 1998 Cavalier gets 29 mpg highway. Say he has a 6 day work week, that's 26 round trips, so that works out to $172.59/month. (70m * 26d / 29mpg * $2.75) The daughter drives a Sunfire 30 miles every day. A 1995 Sunfire gets 31 mpg highway, and let's say she does her driving 6 days/week as well, with school activities or whatever. That's 26 days at 30 miles/day, so that works out to $69.19. (30m * 26d / 31mpg * $2.75) Total cost of gas required for commuting: $429.54. Someone in that story is a liar - might be the editor, might be the family, but someone's making shit up, or else the daughter's putting smokes and beer on that gas card and nobody's caught on yet. "Extreme commuters" who travel more than 90 minutes to work, one way, are the fastest-growing group of commuters, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. This is from the first article in the Extreme Commuting Thread. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=8792.0 So 90 minutes at 60 MPH each way would give you 180 miles per day. I think I probably mislabeled them as "Extreme Commuters", but it doesn't necessarily seem like the threshold for the "Extreme Commuter" title is quite 275 miles per day. You misunderstood my point, probably because it was utterly unclear...I was just saying, 90 miles/day doesn't add up to $720; and watching the story, 90 + 70 + 30 miles/day doesn't add up to a $720 bill...unless maybe they didn't pay last month's bill and it's included?

^I doubt any farmer commutes 90 miles to the fields, but perhaps through the fields. If you take a piece of land which is one mile square, for example, and drive a tractor or whatever up and down the field, completely covering it, let's say taking 50 ft. wide swipes as it goes, you end up traveling something like 105 miles to cover this square of land. Not to mention I doubt tractors or heavy farm equipment get 25 MPG Not to sound snarky, but when farmers plow a field, they call that "plowing" - not "commuting". And MPG doesn't apply to tractors - from what I remember, they don't relaly measure miles, they measure hours of operation. I'm just saying, if they're extreme commuters, then you're talking about more like 275-300 miles per day - not 90 miles per day.

You freak me out with the stalking thing at the Cincinnati meet, but no, not angry - just disturbed. Unusualfire said they commuted 90 miles a day. Farmers plow and cut and rake and bale and harvest on tractors - but they don't commute 90 miles on tractors. Like I said, I'm not arguing that farmers aren't hurt by higher fuel prices, or that rural families are impacted, or anything like that. I'm just saying whoever said they spent $720/month on gas is full of shit, that's all.

Ink, you name me a farmer who commutes 90 miles to his frickin' fields.

Jaco Pastorius...though I know him mostly through my bassist friend who worships him...