Civvik

^ Holy moly. I didn't know it was opening so early!

^Well, how does it work? Smooth? Wonky? This is something I have absolutely no experience with!

^I've never heard that, personally. Only non-load bearing. But I could be wrong.

Bel Air is hardly rural and sits against mountains. Potomac is outside the beltway, besides it has a commercial center. It's just a suburb, I do not think those residents pretend that they are rural. Fox Chapel is one peer, but Pittsburgh's topography kind of precludes any rational conversation about routing freeways anyhow. OK enough of this, it's off topic. I am sorry if I offended you with my venom, but it's an opinion I will defend and I assure you I have a decent perspective of the place.

^Not really. ColDayMan and I were talking about it the other day, actually. It's not the only one, but its not common, inside of a beltway.

^ The developers are building ones above ground too, inside the blocks.

I don't really understand this, can you explain? Indian Hill is pretty far east, and there isn't much past it that would warrant a highway. Personally, I'm glad the freeway didnt cut through the middle of Indian Hill. Part of what makes Indian Hill special is that it feels remote and tranquil, and that surely would have been destroyed with a freeway. Don't get me started on Indian Hill. Indian Hill is disgusting. It is the worst of America. Make-believe rural. Galactic wealth with very little regard for the urban center or region that supports it. A breeding ground of insularity, hardcore drugs and cronyism. It walled itself off from Cincinnati and single-handedly strangled all communities to the east from fully participating in Cincinnati's regional economy, preserving them as far western outposts of Appalachia, with none of its beauty or authentic culture. It executes its virtually limitless power over neighboring communities with complete impunity. The world view of young people coming out of Indian Hill, with modest exception, is completely twisted. Wow...I don't even know how to respond to that. I would ask for facts to back up your ridiculous claims, but they don't exist. Indian Hill is beautiful and peaceful, and its residents are some of the most influential people in the city. It has a great history, first rate school district, and makes the areas around it better, not worse. Ask Mariemont, Terace Park, Montgomery, Milford, Loveland, and Maderia how they like being next to Indian Hill, and I doubt they'll say that it has kept them as "far western outposts of Appalachia". Camp Denison is the only little town next to Indian Hill that could fit that description, and even that is a fairly nice, calm place. I've known two people from Camp Denison, and they both love the small town, rural feel of the place that is provided because of Indian Hill having no commercial or industrial development, and limited density of residential. Honestly, what is your issue with IH? I know I'm harsh. I have a legitimate perspective. That's all I dare to say. Montgomery, Mariemont, Terrace Park, Madeira and Loveland follow the very typical and predictable "cone of wealth" pattern seen in most US metros. Cincinnati's east-side wealth pattern started in Walnut Hills and Hyde Park, not Indian Hill. As for the Appalachia comment, please see every community in Clermont county other than Miami and Union townships. Regionally, Indian Hill is not a good neighbor.

That's exactly right. I think the fall off in value is overstated. Even if the route was a straight shoot up the Main/Walnut axis, things would creep over to Findlay Market and Music Hall relatively fast because both places are well known and unique destinations that are and have been receiving investment from other sources. I also don't think the jog to Elm/Race is that much out of anyone's way, but I think the split between CP and 12th is confusing and doesn't add value. The potential benefit from that split is on Vine Street, but that area has already been redeveloped by 3CDC. Double-tracking CP also gives you the perfect potential tie in between the Streetcar system and the old subway line. I would point you to this 2005 study of Portland's line. Especially pages 4 5 and 6 of the Powerpoint. http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/public/show/pstrtcrhovee I'm with you on the Central Parkway thing though. The only reason I can think that they go up 12th is to avoid the left at Central. Maybe some signalization issues, IF they are trying to coordinate signals with streetcars. Here's an interesting blog post about streetcar rider behavior. Nothing too relevant to routing but some good conversation. http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/streetcars-and-spontaneity.html

Prok I want to be you for a few minutes. Just long enough to see what strange and magical world you live in.

^ I think the only point of contention in this entire convo is how fast value falls off from the line. I would argue, at least based on the TOD research that I have done, that it falls off rather quickly for streetcar. Especially in the scenario of OTR, where the tracks in the ground have a huge impact on the perception of value. But, I have seen studies that go both ways, so it's certainly open for debate. One thing I definitely would do is eliminate that little detour north of Findlay Market. Except that it might be the location of the car barn, or whatever they call it. I'm not sure what benefit that piece of track has otherwise. I have driven the entire route many times now. The detour is noticeable, but I didn't think it was THAT bad. Just my opinion. What IS noticeable is the HUGE potential of lighting up Elm and Race with streetcar track. Main and Elm are basically in two different countries right now.

I don't. It was entirely hypothetical. But not unrealistic.

I'm not quite sure why you are commenting from the perspective of mobility when I already qualified what I said as being from the perspective of land value, or more accurately, access. (Since the two components of transportation are mobility and access.) The staggered route will increase access to more blighted parcels. I think another way to look at it would be that a solution that was 100% skewed towards access (and thus land value) would be a tangle of streetcar line that hit as many blighted parcels as possible. While a solution that was 100% skewed towards mobility would be a grade-separated toboggan from the zoo to the banks. You could definitely argue that part of the value brought by the streetcar is in the mobility, but it could likewise be said that the * perceived* value will be in its ease of access, its predictability and its permanence.

It will patently never happen. You can see the ghosts of planning and anticipation of a completed cross-county in Milford. The gigantic 275 Milford Parkway interchange sat as a stub for decades, with the Park 50 business park looming to the east. Today, Park 50 has high vacancy rates and the interchange terminates westerly into a Super Walmart.

I don't really understand this, can you explain? Indian Hill is pretty far east, and there isn't much past it that would warrant a highway. Personally, I'm glad the freeway didnt cut through the middle of Indian Hill. Part of what makes Indian Hill special is that it feels remote and tranquil, and that surely would have been destroyed with a freeway. Don't get me started on Indian Hill. Indian Hill is disgusting. It is the worst of America. Make-believe rural. Galactic wealth with very little regard for the urban center or region that supports it. A breeding ground of insularity, hardcore drugs and cronyism. It walled itself off from Cincinnati and single-handedly strangled all communities to the east from fully participating in Cincinnati's regional economy, preserving them as far western outposts of Appalachia, with none of its beauty or authentic culture. It executes its virtually limitless power over neighboring communities with complete impunity. The world view of young people coming out of Indian Hill, with modest exception, is completely twisted.

^That's so old that's its going to confuse you more than inform you.

-Since we do not yet know all the operating details, perhaps all trains will not travel on the same route? -Past analysis of development activity and land values near transit shows that values tend to fall off with increasing distance such that the clearest impact is only one or two blocks from a station, especially for finely grained transit like streetcar. Thus, since the city is pushing the streetcar as a development catalyst first and mobility improvement second, there is clear rationalization for the "zig zag." -I do agree with you that a direct route from the zoo to the river would be ideal for mobility. But even if you drove a straight line from A to B, it would still be blown out of the water by LRT, which I hope we get someday. So no, it's not necessarily "bad transit planning."

Your first suggestion, if you go: Please ask them to think of a name other than SORTA.

^I still don't know how the hell it's going to get up the hill to Uptown without things rolling down the aisles and people hanging onto the poles.

If you had a choice between the streetcar and the bus for the same trip, why would anyone take the bus? Sounds like a good plan to me.

What is the university transit center?

Ahhh sorry guys I meant just any Kroger, not necessarily the big fancy one. I don't think Kroger HQ is connecting what happened in Kenwood to downtown Cincy. They won't be skeptical because of that. For what it's worth, I'm very bullish on urban grocers. I've seen them work in many different types and sizes of downtowns. Cincinnati has no excuse. It really doesn't. And the Vine Kroger is a red headed stepchild, I don't even count it. For now.

I really liked that new Kenwood Kroger. I'm sad. :( If they open one at the Banks, I'll be happy. :)

Just imagine how extending I-74 to Wilmington N.C. from where it ends today will depopulate the east side of Cincinnati. I do not believe this will happen. It could, but Clermont County is a bastion of Appalachian culture. I speculate that suburban pioneers into Warren county had a neutral opinion of the local school districts and culture. Most established east side Cincinnatians have a negative opinion of most school districts in Clermont county. If you don't believe the groundwork for bringing I-74 through Cincinnati is being laid right now, do these three things: 1. Drive the Red Bank "Expressway" and notice how far back the new buildings have been sited from the current right-of-way. 2. Review some zoning maps to see the ghost of a grade-separated interchange footprint that city traffic engineers are trying to reserve land for at Madison Road and the Red Bank Expressway. 2. Get a Rand McNally Atlas and see the pieces of I-74 starting to appear on the map of North Carolina. Oh sorry I should have been more specific. I don't doubt the EC freeway, I doubt that it will spark the same kind of growth in Clermont or Brown that it did in Warren. One example: Loveland and Milford PSD are in the same township in Clermont, but there is a lot of steering in the real estate community towards Loveland.

PS this is morphing into its own topic. If you want to keep up the discussion of the first ring suburbs we can move it.

Just imagine how extending I-74 to Wilmington N.C. from where it ends today will depopulate the east side of Cincinnati. I do not believe this will happen. It could, but Clermont County is a bastion of Appalachian culture. I speculate that suburban pioneers into Warren county had a neutral opinion of the local school districts and culture. Most established east side Cincinnatians have a negative opinion of most school districts in Clermont county.