Pugu

is the "preferred alternative" a bus connection or a rail extension?

This isn't an apartment--or hotel--news yet, but perhaps could be: The Standard Bldg is up for sale. "The nation's oldest labor union is putting its headquarters building on the market, in a bet that downtown Cleveland projects will boost investor zeal for sites near Public Square. The railroad union, now called the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, constructed the Standard Building in 1924 to house the country's first labor bank. Now the group has publicly listed the property for sale, for the first time in its history. The Chartwell Group real estate brokerage is marketing the 21-story building, at Ontario Street and Saint Clair Avenue, for $8.8 million...." http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/01/railroad_union_nations_oldest.html [Cross-posted in the Hotels thread.]

This isn't hotel--or apartment--news yet, but perhaps could be: The Standard Bldg is up for sale. "The nation's oldest labor union is putting its headquarters building on the market, in a bet that downtown Cleveland projects will boost investor zeal for sites near Public Square. The railroad union, now called the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, constructed the Standard Building in 1924 to house the country's first labor bank. Now the group has publicly listed the property for sale, for the first time in its history. The Chartwell Group real estate brokerage is marketing the 21-story building, at Ontario Street and Saint Clair Avenue, for $8.8 million...." http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/01/railroad_union_nations_oldest.html [Cross-posted in the Downtown Residencies thread.]

hmmmmm..... NYT: Organizers Say 1 Million Signed Petition to Recall Wisconsin Governor http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/18/us/organizers-say-1-million-signed-petition-to-recall-gov-walker-in-wisconsin.html?_r=1&hp

^I could see that happening too! something very scary about it.

despite my personal thoughts on the price, i hope the aquarium is successful and that Phase 2 is built. I would assume if they find attendance lacking below their expectations, they will lower the price or offer discounts, specials, etc....

MTS--you're confusing 'value' with 'price'. Lets say the aquarium has super assume ultra fine RARE octopi-jelly fish fusion of which there are only 3 left in the world. surely admission may be 'worth' $500 to see such a rarity and to cover the cost of the owners to bring and maintain such creatures. however the 'price' is just that--$500. WHICH IS HIGH for a one time viewing that may consume a few hours of your time. No one here is debating 'value' because we haven't seen and experienced it. we're talking about the price at the door--whether or not the stuff inside is worth it--as that may determine for many, many folks whether or not they'll bother at all to attend. and for a family of four to spend around $100 for a few hours IS pretty pricey--whether you spend it here, in NY, or in other cities.

this is a FOR-PROFIT venture, isn't it? which is different than CMA, the zoo, and most museums, if not all, in the city. that may help explain the high price... i betchya if it were a little lower they'd make more money due to higher attendance.

KJP--I would recommend keeping it here as it is--at least as currently envisioned--as it is more than a just a bus facility. the bus part seems may be the 'catalyst' for greater development, as many here are hoping. maybe specific details regarding the bus facility itself (number of bays, lanes, etc.) could be discussed in the transportation section, but the project as a whole could stay here.... just my thoughts.

^ all that expensive fish food, huh? i just hope it doesn't scare people away and that phase II is ultimately built.

^i noticed that. but for the one-time visitor (attending at most once per year), it seems like a lot. some comparisons: The Zoo--which is much larger costs $11 or $8 for adults (depending on the time of year) and less for children. The art museum is free The natural history museum is $10 and $7/$8 for children The rock hall is $22 ($18 for CLE residents) and Free/$13 for children (depending on age) Science Museum is $14 for adults and $12 for children

wow--not cheap: * Adult - $21.95 * Child (2-12) - $15.95 http://greaterclevelandaquarium.com/admissions/ that's really high, isn't it, compared to other museums, zoo included, in the city?

This is good to know---we can hold this to the owner/demolisher if we don't see something in 2 years. Do you have a paragraph/citation for the law?

^If he lived Downtown, he could quickly jump on the Shoreway. In Cle hts, it would be a longer hike to work, I think, even though he'd be starting out further east. Downtown, I'd check out the Warehouse District. That's probably the best residential district downtown, though there are others. Cleveland State is nearby (about a mile away) so there may be some potential roommates from there to broaden your pool of roommates if you end up going that route.

KJP--Rail lines attract investment, I don't doubt that. Just look at NYC. So, if MRN is building along the Red Line, its a smart thing to do. But we're talking about a bus depot of sorts. My fear is that it would have the opposite effect of a rail station--it would hinder future development. I'm not familiar with the Tubbs transit center mentioned above. Did that bring nearby economic development (as we should, as others mentioned above, use a Cleveland example in this town)? I know the Greyhound station didn't attract any development in the last 20 years---maybe it did when buses were fashionable, but not lately. In fact I know folks who avoid even that side of the street to not walk by it.

Oh, yes. Now that there's an RTA bus transfer facility, I'm going to decide to build a $50m apartment and office building next door to cash in on that.

regarding building heights, keep in mind they can't be too high given the runways at BKL. Without doing any calculations, though, ten stories would probably be okay.

Its what I've heard (not read).

Overall, I like the plan. Particularly as it gives solid parameters: BKL stays (which I fully agree with) and the Port remains. I agree with the above that a connection to flats east--continuous retail development or something--is needed. Also, I'd like to see residential development in the plan as a 'must' rather than a maybe'.

^I don't think anybody has actually put that in writing. I'd be very surprised it they did.

That's what i said: "[it would be] A major loss [to the city] if UA is doing this [building this sales office here] as a political replacement for the hub." Meaning, if they are pretending to be giving something to the city, while taking away something far greater. Ok, now back to Playhouse Square...

Could be if the hub remains. A major loss if UA is doing this as a political replacement for the hub.

You think I'm an elitist? I take the bus and I assure you I'm a practicalist and no elitist. Actually "those people" are school kids, but I bet you were thinking of other people...which makes YOU the elitist. Right now Public Square IS this transit center. It is where routes are designed to intersect to allow a central location for transfers amongst numerous routes. But---its not a true 'transit center' because--thank God--buses don't sit there on layover. That said, a lot of people stay away from Public Square at key times per day is because of the school kids--that's what people are really trying to avoid (not the guy who takes the bus to and from work). Yes, there may be some of that too, people just sitting around, yet public square is just that, a 'public square'. some of those folks will stay at public square, though provide a nice roof/shelter and the WHD is an even better place to hang out/sleep. This scene will stunt growth and development. Waiting for plans means waiting for it to be further developed. Here's a hint--Why do you think this WHD bus concept is arising? because the powers that be realize the impact of bus transfers/school kids on Public Square and want to revitalize the area (casino, main walkway between Tower City and the Convention Center, etc.) and thus have to move this function SOMEWHERE. This isn't about making the WHD a better place, its about trying to improve Public Square by removing an undesirable element there and moving it elsewhere.

But is this really good? CO already had a sales office here (on E 9th, I think). And presumably UA had one in Chicago as that was their HQ. does this mean UA will not do sales for the Midwest out of Chicago---and do it only in CLE? But more worrisome---does this foreshadow a hub closure by their offering a little something in return?

A bus depot in the WHD is a terrible idea. when the market rebounds, housing/retail projects will return to the drawing board and eventually the surface lots will disappear. putting a bus transfer station in the WHD will prevent the area from become a nice walkable area. The bus transfer area is just for that--for transfers--and where buses can layover at the end of their routes. Why do this in such a prime piece of real estate in the city? This could be done anywhere--say somewhere in the West Flats or by Browns Stadium. This idea is REALLLLLY crazy and misguided. Note--i'm not against these bus transfer centers, but they should located where they will not negatively impact areas that strong potential for economic vitality.