We've touched on this before in discussions and after researching the topic on the world-wide-web it seams this is a hot topic for sports writers. It appears that the numbers are starting to tip in favor of hockey fans while popularity for pro-basketball is falling.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

What can the NBA and Stern do to regain numbers?

What is it about the NHL that is gaining momentum (besides airing on ESPN, etc.)?

Are fans of the NBA switching to the NHL?

 

 

 

Discuss!

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/NHL-vs-NBA-Hockey-winning-in-attendance-fan-e?urn=nhl,123904

 

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/bakay/010209.html

 

The fact is that neither of these leagues is particularly thriving in a bad economy, and that both are having to resort to some creative marketing to keeps fannies in the seats. But to hear NBA writers and fans tell it, there seems to be an unmistakable malaise setting in for professional basketball, at a time when professional hockey is having some semblance of a renaissance.

 

They still play professional hockey?

They still play professional hockey?

 

It appears so. ;) ^^

That SI is from 1994 and the yahoo article is from 2008. 

 

The NBA is much more popular than the NHL.  Hockey has a smaller number of die-hard fans, so their attendance is always solid, but national interest isn't nearly as high as the NBA.  I mean, you can't even watch NHL games on regular TV unless you have something called Vs. 

I don't see how the NHL even comes close to the NBA.

 

Of course the NBA declined in popularity in 1994--Jordan was on his hiatus.

 

I would consider the NBA the second most popular league and hockey is either 5th or 4th. I can't stand Nascar, but it appears to have surpassed hockey.

That's not a fair fight.

There was a gap in the NBA after Jordan left/faded before Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. took the reigns.  Remember when everybody was looking of the next Jordan?  Grand Hill, Penny Hardaway, Vince Carter all took their crack.  All failed for various reasons.  Defense ruled the day and point total averages were dipping into the low 90's, even the high 80's.  Truthfully, the utter brilliance of the defensive schemes had dulled down the game in the minds of many fans, even the purists.  The NBA changed some rules on how teams could defend (no hand-checking), brought in the 3-point line a bit and other minor tweaks.... and now the league is getting back to the glory days of Magic, Larry and Michael with a new influx of elite talent.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the NBA the fastest growing sports market in the world.  When I was recently in NJ visiting the in-laws, I found an internet stream for the Cavs' game coming from Italy!  China is also getting NBA fever, especially since the era of Yao began. 

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

From Wiki:

 

It shows the NBA and NHL going neck and neck @ 17,520/17,460 (avg. attendance) ... from 2008-09.

 

Was this possible 10 years ago?

 

Remember when everybody was looking of the next Jordan?  Grand Hill, Penny Hardaway, Vince Carter all took their crack.  All failed for various reasons.

 

Harold Miner  :lol:

Harold Miner :lol:

 

baby  jordan

the average ticket price of an nhl game is also almost $10 cheaper than an NBA game.  this no doubt has an effect on attendance these days.

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

 

The NHL is coming off of a near-death experience (the 2004-5 lockout)--of course its attendance is rising. The NBA is a stronger league that is being affected by the economy. I'd love to go to a Cavs game, but I'm not going to shell out $300 for a seat that is half way up the seating bowl.

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

 

The NHL has more room for upward movement.  I don't think the NHL will become close in overall popularity to the NBA any time soon (attendance plus TV viewership), regardless of what a forum on ice hockey may think.

Here is a quote from that forum link that pretty much says it all.  Attendance is not a strong indicator of league success in the era of HDTVs.

 

"There's a very simple reason that attendance has declined in the NBA, and it has nothing to do with the sport's fans losing interest. It's because the NBA is available on a wide variety of television networks that people have actually heard of and have access to. The NBA is on ESPN Wednesdays and Fridays, TNT on Thursdays, and on ABC every Sunday beginning in January. Oh, and the late stages of the playoffs and Finals are also nationally televised on ABC. The NHL? They have that big network contract with ... Versus, which can be found on channel five-hundred-and-something on your local cable or satellite provider. Maybe."

Is there a "mercy rule" on this forum?  ;)

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

 

The NHL is coming off of a near-death experience (the 2004-5 lockout)--of course its attendance is rising. The NBA is a stronger league that is being affected by the economy. I'd love to go to a Cavs game, but I'm not going to shell out $300 for a seat that is half way up the seating bowl.

 

You don't have to. Just go to stubhub and buy them at $12 and up. ;)

 

http://www.stubhub.com/cleveland-cavaliers-tickets/

 

Btw, a Penguins fan will have to shell out more for a ticket than a Cavs fan. This shows it depends on the city.

Hands down hockey is the better sport but unfortunately (for me) the NBA is the more popular league.

It comes down to marketing and tv exposure. ESPN, ABC, and TNT pimp the sh*t out of the NBA since they have money invested in the product. Even though they show highlights and bring Barry Melrose and Matthew Barnaby on every now and then, they have nothing to gain by showing hockey highlights since they dont have a tv contract with the NHL.

To me, the basketball game taking place on the court seems to come second to the in game entertainment

 

Here is a quote from that forum link that pretty much says it all. Attendance is not a strong indicator of league success in the era of HDTVs.

 

"There's a very simple reason that attendance has declined in the NBA, and it has nothing to do with the sport's fans losing interest. It's because the NBA is available on a wide variety of television networks that people have actually heard of and have access to. The NBA is on ESPN Wednesdays and Fridays, TNT on Thursdays, and on ABC every Sunday beginning in January. Oh, and the late stages of the playoffs and Finals are also nationally televised on ABC. The NHL? They have that big network contract with ... Versus, which can be found on channel five-hundred-and-something on your local cable or satellite provider. Maybe."

 

Horrible argument ... here's why:

 

If the NBA was and always has been superior, of course it's going to be covered more! If the NHL has always been inferior (as far as popularity) but is on the rise, then we'll will see sports networks start to pick it up as it wasn't always popular but is starting to (which we're going to and are starting to see).

 

Simple logic folks.

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

 

The NHL is coming off of a near-death experience (the 2004-5 lockout)--of course its attendance is rising. The NBA is a stronger league that is being affected by the economy. I'd love to go to a Cavs game, but I'm not going to shell out $300 for a seat that is half way up the seating bowl.

 

You don't have to. Just go to stubhub and buy them at $12 and up. ;)

 

http://www.stubhub.com/cleveland-cavaliers-tickets/

 

Btw, a Penguins fan will have to shell out more for a ticket than a Cavs fan. This shows it depends on the city.

 

The ranges for Penguins tickets don't go nearly as high.  Even for the playoffs.  Maybe in basketball it's more important to see the details of the action so the nosebleeds are much less desirable, whereas in hockey it's hard to see the damn puck anyway so people don't care where they're sitting so much (I'm joking).

 

By the way that $12 ticket is a single ticket in the 2nd to the top row of the worst section in the building (upper deck behind the basket) against a last place team (the Pacers).  You're going to pay a lot more than that for a halfway decent seat where you can sit next to somebody you know, even against a bad team.

 

We get it.  You love hockey.  You hate basketball.  You're biased.  That's fine.  Just enjoy your hockey games and stop trying to pick a fight.

2008 isn't a long time ago considering when these 2 sports came into existence ;) . Feel free to google a more recent article.

 

http://www.forumice.com/showthread.php?t=27963

 

My point is what someone made in the forum above... The NHL's attendance is rising while the NBA's is falling.

 

 

The NHL is coming off of a near-death experience (the 2004-5 lockout)--of course its attendance is rising. The NBA is a stronger league that is being affected by the economy. I'd love to go to a Cavs game, but I'm not going to shell out $300 for a seat that is half way up the seating bowl.

 

You don't have to. Just go to stubhub and buy them at $12 and up. ;)

 

http://www.stubhub.com/cleveland-cavaliers-tickets/

 

Btw, a Penguins fan will have to shell out more for a ticket than a Cavs fan. This shows it depends on the city.

 

$12 to sit in the last row, vs oklahoma maybe.  My seats for the portland game were halfway up in the corner section and they were over $80 piece.

Hands down hockey is the better sport but unfortunately (for me) the NBA is the more popular league.

 

Hands down hockey is the better sport? Is that a fact or your opinion?

 

You see, I hate hockey. I don't know how to skate and I don't watch very much hockey because it bores the hell out of me. But at least I understand that if I did know more about hockey and played it myself, I would probably be much more interested in watching it and think of it more highly as a sport. Just because you (I assume) don't or haven't ever played competitive basketball means that you won't find the sport as interesting or understand the intricacies of it as much as someone who has.

NHL is on NBC for a game of the week situation. The NBA economics are a total disaster w/ multiple teams seriously considering bankruptcy. Lots of movement by franchises is a bad sign not a good one. The NBA's problem is that it dominates very few markets in terms of basketball. College basketball is competitive with the pro's in many, many markets. Cleveland is an exception not the rule. Whereas, the NHL essentially dominates the national view of hockey. The NHL has a long way to grow and the fact that participation is harder to do than basketball will always limit its growth. I'd guess that long term the MLS (assuming it doesn't self-destruct) will pass hockey and then the NBA (not basketball altogether) in popularity.

It's true that hockey is not going to be as popular or maybe as accessible to the country as a whole like the NBA.  It's a simple matter of economics.  all you need to play basketball is a ball and and a hoop which are available everywhere.  Hockey is much more costly and mostly unavailable to huge swaths of the country.

 

I'd contend that the NBA is not the second most popular, i think it's still the NFL and MLB in those slots.

 

The NHL is hampered by their unfortunate deal with Versus which (although available on almost all cable systems) is still second fiddle to the larger networks that actively promote their product (the NBA).  NHL is still available on NBC on Sunday afternoons.  It doesn't help that NBC is a terrible sports network, though.

 

Personally? i am not a fan of the NBA.  Removing defense and allowing BS continuation fouls and skewing the game so heavily in favor of a few stars is really obnoxious.  I'll take the NCAA any day of the week.

It's not even close.  Even IF the NBA were declining, the Charlotte Bobcats are more popular than the NHL in the United States.

jam40jeff, I don't hate basketball. That's crazy. lol

 

I love all sports. My question was to see why we're seeing a shift in attendance ... and no one has brought up a good reason yet. Someone stated it cost $300 to go to a game, well, it doesn't. Someone said well the price doesn't max out like basketball. That's not the point. It cost more to get into a Penguins game. Someone said, well maybe if they play Oklahoma. Not the point either, as it doesn't cost $300 to go to "a game."

 

This thread has ruffled some feathers. I like both sports, okay ... it's just some of the points made are poor.

jam40jeff, I don't hate basketball. That's crazy.

 

OK, you fooled me (I still don't see why it would be crazy, though.  lol?).  I know a few hockey fans and they all hate basketball with a passion so I was probably making some assumptions.

 

My question was to see why we're seeing a shift in attendance ... and no one has brought up a good reason yet.

 

You mean the fact that you can watch the NBA on network television in HD (and many more games on TNT and ESPN) isn't a possible reason for people choosing to not want to pay to go to games?

It's not even close. Even IF the NBA were declining, the Charlotte Bobcats are more popular than the NHL in the United States.

 

Again, this is about the trend, not the current status.

 

Last year both sports saw about the same in average attendance ... if hockey has no hope, what does this say about the NBA? Hmmmmm?

^ and your points are all awesome!

well personally, I just don't care.  Every market will be different.  I have been a Cavs fan since I started having memories.  I've had season tickets since I got out of college a decade ago.  I even went to watch those utterly putrid teams of the early 2000's.  The NHL doesn't even exist to me.  My guess is if you talked to someone from Pittsburgh you would get the complete opposite answer. Who cares?

I never realized that Cincy people hate the NBA so much ;)

 

It's true that hockey is not going to be as popular or maybe as accessible to the country as a whole like the NBA. It's a simple matter of economics. all you need to play basketball is a ball and and a hoop which are available everywhere. Hockey is much more costly and mostly unavailable to huge swaths of the country.

 

Then why is Football more popular than both.

 

 

I wish I could get a pair of decent seats for $12! Not in Cleveland.

I never realized that Cincy people hate the NBA so much ;)

 

It's true that hockey is not going to be as popular or maybe as accessible to the country as a whole like the NBA.  It's a simple matter of economics.  all you need to play basketball is a ball and and a hoop which are available everywhere.  Hockey is much more costly and mostly unavailable to huge swaths of the country.

 

Then why is Football more popular than both.

 

And why is soccer not as popular as any of the sports mentioned in this thread?

I never realized that Cincy people hate the NBA so much ;)

 

It's true that hockey is not going to be as popular or maybe as accessible to the country as a whole like the NBA. It's a simple matter of economics. all you need to play basketball is a ball and and a hoop which are available everywhere. Hockey is much more costly and mostly unavailable to huge swaths of the country.

 

Then why is Football more popular than both.

 

And why is soccer not as popular as any of the sports mentioned in this thread?

 

On a global scale, it's the most popular sport in the world.

 

Me asking this question does not = me hating the NBA. That's just silly.

jam40jeff, I don't hate basketball. That's crazy. lol

 

I love all sports. My question was to see why we're seeing a shift in attendance ... and no one has brought up a good reason yet. Someone stated it cost $300 to go to a game, well, it doesn't. Someone said well the price doesn't max out like basketball. That's not the point. It cost more to get into a Penguins game. Someone said, well maybe if they play Oklahoma. Not the point either, as it doesn't cost $300 to go to "a game."

 

This thread has ruffled some feathers. I like both sports, okay ... it's just some of the points made are poor.

 

 

When I went to buy two tickets together near Christmas, there were no seats available in the upper bowl. If I wanted to buy two seats, my only choice (for the rest of the regular season) was to buy two seats that would cost me $300.

 

NHL is not on ESPN/TNT because it doesn't make business sense. I'm not surprised that hockey's attendance is going up--the league was almost left for dead a few years ago.

I never realized that Cincy people hate the NBA so much ;)

 

It's true that hockey is not going to be as popular or maybe as accessible to the country as a whole like the NBA. It's a simple matter of economics. all you need to play basketball is a ball and and a hoop which are available everywhere. Hockey is much more costly and mostly unavailable to huge swaths of the country.

 

Then why is Football more popular than both.

 

And why is soccer not as popular as any of the sports mentioned in this thread?

 

On a global scale, it's the most popular sport in the world.

 

Me asking this question does not = me hating the NBA. That's just silly.

 

We're talking about the US, right?

 

I addressed my "hate basketball" comment already.  Now can you address my "TV viewership affecting attendance" comment?

If the NBA's CBA negotiations go bad and all the horrific things that can happen with that kind of stuff, I think we have the potential to have a compelling case for the NHL in 2 years.  But for now, merchandise sales, tv time, brand recognition, and international presence all push the NBA way over the top for popularity.

I have season tickets in the middle bowl for Cavs games.  I called my ticket rep last week to see if I could upgrade and he said I had the best "available" seats.

 

The financial struggles of the NBA franchises have much, much more to do with player salaries (Larry Hughes 5yrs/60mill) and luxury tax penalties than fan loyalty and appreciation.

 

Then why is Football more popular than both.

 

 

 

Football can still be played with just a football and a few friends.  you can play catch with just two, you can have a game with 4...football doesn't need to be about pads...but kids can play tackle without them pretty easily.  The last tackle game i played without pads was in college.

Let's not forget who the commissioner is and where he came from...Gary Bettman, former VP of the NBA...sent to the NHL in order to destroy it.  A task in which he has been largely successful.

I love the NBA way better than the NHL, but I think Dmerkow's point about college basketball is really interesting.  In some markets, college ball definitely competes with the NBA, where you don't see that in hockey at all. Cleveland is probably the exception to this situation, rather than the rule.

I think just about every market that has an NBA team (just about every major media market) would be "the exception, rather than the rule".... if there even is a rule.  College B-ball used to be great.  It is still good, but terribly watered down by one yr rentals and other early departures to the NBA.  You can't convince me that college really "competes" (takes fans away from) the NBA in any of the top 20 media markets such as NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland.  Once you move into the 20-40 range in media markets, you might run into some real competition like Cincy, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Raleigh, etc., but with the exception of Charlotte, none of those cities have NBA teams.

I know the Cavs had one ticket for $12 but that was one seat in the middle of the week against a bad team. I tried finding tickets for tonight and the cheapest was $80 a piece for the worst section. Even if you can find it for $12 which is impossible for 2 seats NHL still is cheaper as Blue Jackets on stub hub has it starting at 5.

 

It doesn't really matter though because these are all resale and higher than what the normal prices are. I know the Cavs and some other NBA teams are going with a company that will determine ticket prices for each game based on ticket demand by the fans. That should be interesting...

^ yea thats what i saw $12 ticket(s) my arse......i'd be at every game if it was easy to get cheap tickets for two. 

It is telling that after last sunday's olympic hockey game that all the radio and TV sportscasters were asking if the NHL would see a rise in popularity because of the US-Canada gold medal game. That question doesn't get asked if the perception exists that the NHL is doing well.

It is telling that after last sunday's olympic hockey game that all the radio and TV sportscasters were asking if the NHL would see a rise in popularity because of the US-Canada gold medal game. That question doesn't get asked if the perception exists that the NHL is doing well.

 

I only started watching the NBA after witnessing the splendor of basketball during the Summer Olympics a couple years ago.

I can't believe this is even a thread.  The NBA's popularity is significantly greater than the NHL's.  It' not even close.

 

The NBA has 3 major TV contracts (if you count ESPN and ABC as two).  NHL has VS, which I wouldn't consider major, and occassional Sunday games on NBC which get poor ratings.

 

Citing the attendence figures really has nothing to do with overall popularity.  However, have you factored in capacity?  The Cavs have sold out every game.  20,562/game.  So have the Canadiens.  21,273/game.  That matters.  I mean, the Indians averaged more fans last year/game than the Cavs do this year...are they more popular?

The NHL is immensily popular to Canadians.  It's the sport their best athletes play.  Here, hockey players tend to be the athletes who were cut from the basketball team in high school :)

The NHL is immensily popular to Canadians. It's the sport their best athletes play. Here, hockey players tend to be the athletes who were cut from the basketball team in high school :)

 

No, that's wrestlers. :lol:

I wouldn't say that to any wrestler.... they might try take you down from the mounted position

I have always been a Cavs fan because I love basketball.  Even when they had Jon Krotty, Cedric Henderson, Chris Mihm, or Vitaly Potapenko.