March 9, 201015 yr @ Clevelander17 and 3231 Both of you are officially correct with regards to athletic scholarships not being offered. I thought it was institutional and I am wrong. That being said IMO, void of facts to back it up, "financial aide" is offered to the 6'5 300lb OL with sub par academics every now and then. I could be off base and maybe/probably am but in the same fashion that collegiate DIII programs offer "academic aide" to prospects they want,(my sister had a mediocre gpa and got a 75% "academic" scholarship... it had nothing to do with the fact she was all-ohio lacrosse and started the second she walked on the field... none what so ever), Iggy et. al. do the same. I am by no means saying this is rampant and common place, nor does it represent a large chunk of their roster. (as you had pointed out) Simply pointing out, it happens, outside firm or no.
March 9, 201015 yr I know that the public school supporters have a problem with this, but athletic scholarships simply do not happen. Catholic schools simply do not have the time or money it would take to recruit an all-star team to win state titles (an endeavor that has no financial reward, mind you). It's just a bad business model. It didn't happen in the 1990s, and it doesn't happen now. Need-based is completely different. If you heard a story from one of your friends cousin's best friend, you heard wrong (if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone use such a situation as "evidence"). Athletic recruiting is illegal per OHSAA guidelines. If any of this was happening, these schools would have been punished for engaging is such activities. On the flip side, I do know of public schools actually getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar, in fact it just happened to Cleveland Heights this past fall. :)
March 9, 201015 yr You have no idea what you are talking about Clevelander17. First, CH did NOT get caught with its hands in the cookie jar. It was a paperwork mishap (pure clerical error) and they were reported by Maple Heights after they beat Maple Heights (that loss could have dropped MH out of the playoffs and WOULD have put CH in the playoffs). The OHSAA has already said they are going to look into changing the rules to prevent the kids from sufferring a similar injustice in the future. Second, the Iggy "reports" did not come from my best friends cousin's girlfriend... I went to school with these kids and I knew what their academic capabilities were vs. their athletic abilities. The kid from the other district was one of the more blatant recruitments you could imagine. He was barely passing grade at a low-level public school but was 6'5 300lb+. Iggy took him nonetheless. He even got expelled while he was there and then reinstated for the following football season. Believe what you want, but don't come here insinuating that others' are fabricating stories which are absolutely true. Anybody who played HS football in this area knows that St. Iggy and Ed's start looking at "athletic" prospects while they are in middle school.
March 9, 201015 yr I know exactly what I'm talking about. Jeff Rotsky has had a cloud over him everywhere he's gone. Cleveland Heights got caught, plain and simple, and Eds and Iggy have never been caught, because they don't engage is such activities. Glenville is the next to get in trouble, by the way, because they're the worst in the area. If anyone hasn't a clue about which he speaks, it's you. Your jealous rage leads you to see things that don't actually exist. Anyone with any familiarity with the Catholic school system knows that your view of the world is not only ridiculous, it's impossible.
March 9, 201015 yr OK... let's try to go through this calmly out of respect for the Mayor. What exactly did CH get caught doing? What were the "activities"? Since you seem to know so well, what is my familiarity with the Catholic school system?
March 9, 201015 yr Clevelander17, FerrariEnzo and Hts121 both said basically the exact same thing regarding this issue, and I dont believe they were in cahoots..... You seem very confident, and maybe from where you stand you are correct, but I tend to believe FerrariEnzo and Hts121, since that is also what I have heard from people close to the situation over the years.
March 9, 201015 yr Clevelander17, FerrariEnzo and Hts121 both said basically the exact same thing regarding this issue, and I dont believe they were in cahoots..... You seem very confident, and maybe from where you stand you are correct, but I tend to believe FerrariEnzo and Hts121, since that is also what I have heard from people close to the situation over the years. Dear Willyboy: "Your jealous rage leads you to see things that don't actually exist. Anyone with any familiarity with the Catholic school system knows that your view of the world is not only ridiculous, it's impossible."
March 9, 201015 yr For the record I have no evidence to support my suspicions. That being said I think we should leave the issue alone... we can agree to disagree and go on our ways. This thread is a celebration of academic excellence and its correlations.
March 9, 201015 yr Clevelander17, FerrariEnzo and Hts121 both said basically the exact same thing regarding this issue, and I dont believe they were in cahoots..... You seem very confident, and maybe from where you stand you are correct, but I tend to believe FerrariEnzo and Hts121, since that is also what I have heard from people close to the situation over the years. Dear Willyboy: "Your jealous rage leads you to see things that don't actually exist. Anyone with any familiarity with the Catholic school system knows that your view of the world is not only ridiculous, it's impossible." Thats hilarious!!!! Well then I guess you got me there. :lol:
March 9, 201015 yr I'd like to see a comparable list for Cincinnati-Dayton since I was National Merit from a school in that region. I presume the only place to find that info is local newspaper stories.
March 10, 201015 yr I was a National Merit Scholar from a Columbus-area school in which the median income was probably slightly but not greatly above average. On the other hand, I think my school (Watkins Memorial) averaged perhaps one National Merit Scholar every two years or so; Granville, a smaller school just northeast of our district, averaged more even in absolute terms, let alone relative terms, but it was not only high-income but had a sizable number of Denison University faculty and staff living there. I have to believe that that had an influence. Likewise, Upper Arlington isn't just a wealthy suburb, though it is that--it has a huge OSU presence, too.
March 10, 201015 yr It's funny that the same old arguments from public school supporters get repeated over and over to the point that they're accepted as truth. Catholic schools don't recruit and don't give out athletic scholarships, PERIOD. You can't provide any evidence to the contrary, except perhaps hearsay, because no such evidence exists. As for Cleveland Heights, I know the details of the situation, I know what they were punished for, and what actually happened. There was a reason why they were sitting home come playoff time.
March 10, 201015 yr ^I agree... I thought about transferring to Ignatius my sophomore year. In my interview with admissions, the admissions rep told me that they didn't take students who wanted to transfer because of sports. Furthermore, I went to Gesu, a huge feeder school for Ignatius, and not a single person I knew was offered a scholarship. Ignatius doesn't have to offer scholarships. More than half of the boys in my eighth grade class went to Ignatius.
March 10, 201015 yr If you're a little kid, it makes for a great story to tell your friends that you were recruited and offered athletic scholarships to play ball at Ignatius, Eds, Benny, Padua, etc. I think some people put too much stock in these situations.
March 10, 201015 yr Clevelander17, why are you still going on about that? Nobody's saying that they do give out "athletic Scholarships". Move on.
March 10, 201015 yr This discussion veered from discussing National Merit Scholarships to athletic scholarships, but with respect to the latter, I have to ask--what's the big deal? If St. Holy Pigskin or whoever wants to give athletic scholarships and ends up admitting dunces who wash out academically, that's the risk they would take in doing so. And if said school <em>still</em> ends up with a large number of National Merit Finalists every year, then I think it's fair to say that the existence of athletic scholarships didn't have a great impact on the school's academics. After all, at some point, the parent can't blame the school's lack of resources for a child's lack of success. If St. Holy Pigskin routinely cranks out National Merit Scholars, then it's fair to say that the school at least <em>can</em> produce such scholars given the right raw material, meaning that if your child is National Merit material, he/she will not fail to reach that potential merely by going to that school. That doesn't mean he/she will actually make it all the way, but it won't be because the school held him/her back by awarding some other, unrelated students athletics scholarships.
March 10, 201015 yr Clevelander17, why are you still going on about that? Nobody's saying that they do give out "athletic Scholarships". Move on. :roll:
March 10, 201015 yr There was a reason why they were sitting home come playoff time. It was because somebody messed up and never turned in the paperwork for a student on the football team who would have otherwise been a legal transfer.
March 10, 201015 yr Seriously, with all the Laffer Curve talk in the Ohio Governor race thread, no reaction to the factoid that Art Laffer is from Cleveland and went to Hawken? Tough crowd! Reading the full list of NMSF is a real feel-good experience- there's at least one kid at tons of area schools. Amazing though that not one at the Cleveland public school. I know there are magnet schools in the system now, but clearly they're not getting much love from the most academically inclined families. What do people think about some county-wide magnet schools/programs? I think I like the idea if it de-couples public school options from home address for a small portion of students.
March 10, 201015 yr Blow to National Merit Scholarships September 1, 2009 The University of Texas at Austin is ending participation in the National Merit Scholarship Program, the largest single campus departure in years from the program, which enjoys considerable prestige in some circles but is controversial in others. The university plans to shift the funds to need-based aid. Last year, Texas was second only to Harvard University in the number of National Merit Scholars it enrolled (281). Some of the scholarships in the program (and all of those at Harvard) are sponsored by companies and other groups, but 213 of those who enrolled at Texas were sponsored by the university, which in recent years has sponsored more of the scholarships than all but a few other universities. (Last year, the University of Southern California sponsored more, 216 -- most colleges don't even top 50.) more:http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/09/01/merit
March 20, 201015 yr Six of the top 10 school property tax rates are for Cuyahoga County districts http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2010/03/six_of_the_top_10_school_prope.html
March 21, 201015 yr Six of the top 10 school property tax rates are for Cuyahoga County districts http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2010/03/six_of_the_top_10_school_prope.html What do you think of that FerrariEnzo?
March 22, 201015 yr It is no shock what-so-ever. I was well aware of Shakers standing and recall a few years back when Cle/Uni Hts. was #2 on that list. Just goes to show you that inner ring suburbs really need to pay to keep a high caliber of city services. This is for many reasons not least of which is tax base. Most of those communities were developed before or early in the "car, sprawl" era and thus don't have the same commercial tax base that cities like Beachwood and Solon have, smartly, developed. I don't have a graphic to represent this but from people I have talked to Shakers city services are second to none. They come up my driveway to my garage and get my trash, have beautiful tree lined streets, one of the best library systems in America per size of city, top notch public schools and a police department that is annually ranked top in the region. Is it worth it? Depends on what you want in a community. I am in no hurry to move to Pepper Pike.
March 22, 201015 yr Yes, Shaker is very well known for their very high property taxes (among some of the highest in the country), excellent services and good schools (and general loveliness). Cleveland Hts is also pretty well known for being up there, but a little lower, as well as Lakewood. In spite of this we are looking for a house likely in Shaker Hts, and we dont even have any kids!
March 22, 201015 yr Is there any data as to where the students that attend all the eastside private schools actually live? I went to a private H.S. in St. Louis, and my school (as well as the others) drew students from all over the city. I'm sure there is probably a disproportionate amount of students actually from the eastside suburbs, but do you think the most well-to-do westsiders ship their kids to the other side of the city?
March 22, 201015 yr ^No. I went to University School for my Freshman yr in H.S. (what a disaster that was is another topic). The great majority of the students were from the east side. I would say the majority were from the wealthier suburbs like Shaker, Orange, Pepper Pike, Hunting Valley, Gates Mills, . A good amount were from the "other" side of Cleveland Hts. I think only 1 or 2 in my class were from the portion of CH north of Cedar. There were random kids from Cleveland, East Cleveland, Warrensville, etc. Very few came from the west side, or even the south side for that matter. However, I think there were quite a few - from what I heard - that attended K-8 at the Shaker campus and then went to Iggy or Ed's for HS. It may be different for HB and Laurel (the 2 all-girls schools) due to the fact that their HS's are in Shaker. But upper campuses for US, Gilmour, and Hawken are all so far east that a commute from any western suburb would be obscene and their are other options for HS boys that are much closer to home (Iggy, Ed's).
March 22, 201015 yr The number of girls from the near west side who attend HB and Laurel is increasing.
March 22, 201015 yr ^No. I went to University School for my Freshman yr in H.S. (what a disaster that was is another topic). The great majority of the students were from the east side. I would say the majority were from the wealthier suburbs like Shaker, Orange, Pepper Pike, Hunting Valley, Gates Mills, . A good amount were from the "other" side of Cleveland Hts. I think only 1 or 2 in my class were from the portion of CH north of Cedar. There were random kids from Cleveland, East Cleveland, Warrensville, etc. Very few came from the west side, or even the south side for that matter. However, I think there were quite a few - from what I heard - that attended K-8 at the Shaker campus and then went to Iggy or Ed's for HS. It may be different for HB and Laurel (the 2 all-girls schools) due to the fact that their HS's are in Shaker. But upper campuses for US, Gilmour, and Hawken are all so far east that a commute from any western suburb would be obscene and their are other options for HS boys that are much closer to home (Iggy, Ed's). From my experience, spot on. Right now on my street, Carlton Rd., there is one family that has there kids in Gilmour (waited till 7th grade) one family that is sending their kids once they hit high school to Ignatius and one family who's kid goes to U.S. (has been at U.S. since 1st grade). The one family (the dad is Shaker Schools Treasurer) who send their kids to public, and their daughter is a National Merit Semi Finalist... ironic? haha
March 22, 201015 yr Just from personal observation, the only high school that seems to really attract students from all of Greater Cleveland in LARGE numbers is St. Ignatius. Of course you have some students attending all private schools from all over town, but nothing like Iggy which draws from far and wide and in significant numbers.
March 22, 201015 yr I think Hts is right; as of the 1990s anyway, I think the overwhelming number of families at the four east side independent schools were from Cleveland and Shaker Heights and the belt of large lot burbs to the east (Pepper Pike, Moreland Hills, Gates Mills, Hunting Valley). It's not just proximity though; there is a lot of self selection when families buy homes in certain areas, and I'd guess people who would consider expensive, secular private schools mostly buy houses on the east side to begin with. I don't think it's come up here yet, but there is one k-12 independent school on the west side too: the relatively young Lake Ridge Academy (http://www.lakeridgeacademy.org/)
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Well it look like you got part of that statement correct!
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Well it look like you got part of that statement correct! Eh, I got about 80% of it correct.
April 2, 201015 yr I've been eagerly awaiting this showdown. He's all yours MTS. :roll: Another time and place, perhaps. 8-)
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Well it look like you got part of that statement correct! Eh, I got about 80% of it correct. You sound like a bitter angry person who's upset that he wasn't capable of earning an award. Jealousy is an ugly ensemble....you wear it well.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Well it look like you got part of that statement correct! Eh, I got about 80% of it correct. You sound like a bitter angry person who's upset that he wasn't capable of earning an award. Jealousy is an ugly ensemble....you wear it well. Wow, you surmised all of that based on two posts? The stories are true!
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Birth plays some role. I doubt it's the dominant one, though. Upbringing has to mean something. I'm sure that a clone of me would have had a lot more trouble winning the award if my parents had broken up or been killed by ninjas when I was young.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Birth plays some role. I doubt it's the dominant one, though. Upbringing has to mean something. I'm sure that a clone of me would have had a lot more trouble winning the award if my parents had broken up or been killed by ninjas when I was young. I agree. I'm the baby, but I'm the malicious nerdy over achiever. I live in the Malvern neighborhood in Shaker and its a shame they shut down Malvern elementary in the early 90s... I had to go to Onaway and I always missed the damn bus. I went to Malvern :'( :'( . You went to Onaway, unlike my nephews and nieces who had to go to Boulevard - On the opposite end of the city. and SHMS, will always be Byron Jr. High to me!
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Birth plays some role. I doubt it's the dominant one, though. Upbringing has to mean something. I'm sure that a clone of me would have had a lot more trouble winning the award if my parents had broken up or been killed by ninjas when I was young. You're right, I should have clarified. What I meant to say was that being born into the right type of family goes a long way, too. Nurture plays a role, but the most important aspect is what goes on in the home, not the school. The number of NMSFs is a credit to the type of students/families that Shaker Heights still somehow manages to attract, not really a credit to the quality of the schools themselves.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. I think you may be exaggerating the demographic change in the city. It's been pretty incremental, certainly not East Cleveland in the 1960s. And from your reaction, I think you may be overestimating the connection between a city's overall demographics and the performance of its top public school students. So, for example, it's not at all surprising to me that Heights High had as many NSMF as Rocky River (1) and almost as many as Strongsville and Westlake (2 each).
April 2, 201015 yr As a former teacher at an Associates degree granting college (Electronic Technology Instute, 40th and Euclid-now gone) of students predominately from the Cleveland Public School system circa 1980 I can tell you that there is a lot of unrecognized, undeveloped potential in students from underclass neighborhoods. Motivation, which often accompanies having to pay tuition out of your own pocket and a goal, i.e. getting a specific type of job have a lot to do with realizing that potential. An iron fisted instructor who recognizes that potential also helps. Matering complex material can become addictive to students who have never done so before.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. I think you may be exaggerating the demographic change in the city. It's been pretty incremental, certainly not East Cleveland in the 1960s. And from your reaction, I think you may be overestimating the connection between a city's overall demographics and the performance of its top public school students. So, for example, it's not at all surprising to me that Heights High had as many NSMF as Rocky River (1) and almost as many as Strongsville and Westlake (2 each). Not to mention, I'm a minority.
April 2, 201015 yr As a former award winner, seeing Shaker on top of the list, isn't shocking! It is a bit considering how much the demographics have changed. NMSFs are born, not taught. Birth plays some role. I doubt it's the dominant one, though. Upbringing has to mean something. I'm sure that a clone of me would have had a lot more trouble winning the award if my parents had broken up or been killed by ninjas when I was young. I'm the malicious nerdy over achiever. I've known a number of other National Merit Scholars--and this describes a surprising number of us. 8-) :evil:
April 2, 201015 yr I've known a number of other National Merit Scholars--and this describes a surprising number of us. 8) >:D Were calculating from an early age! We usually practice our malicious acts on older siblings. Wait..did I just admit that? >:D
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