21 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Let Cleveland Heights, Euclid or other bordering suburbs take it on. Cleveland has enough blight on the east side already, it doesn't need another.

Maybe before making any statements about what bordering suburbs should take East Cleveland on, you should familiarize yourself with WHERE East Cleveland is at and WHAT communities SHARE borders with East Cleveland.  There are TWO and ONLY TWO:  Cleveland and Cleveland Heights.  

 

8 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

There are so many people here who have smartly responded that there’s no need for me to address this 

When somebody cannot even correctly state the cities that share borders with East Cleveland, your statement nails it.

17 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Maybe before making any statements about what bordering suburbs should take East Cleveland on, you should familiarize yourself with WHERE East Cleveland is at and WHAT communities SHARE borders with East Cleveland.  There are TWO and ONLY TWO:  Cleveland and Cleveland Heights.  

 

When somebody cannot even correctly state the cities that share borders with East Cleveland, your statement nails it.

Lol. FACTS. I really don’t understand why people enjoy opining on things they know nothing about. If you don’t even know what cities border East Cleveland, u probably shouldn’t be talking about it lol. 

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Let Cleveland Heights, Euclid or other bordering suburbs take it on. Cleveland has enough blight on the east side already, it doesn't need another.

The blight is there whether it is technically within the city limits or not.

 

Cleveland Heights incorporating EC is an interesting idea, but it doesn't make sense. CH would absorb all of EC problems with even less of an ability to deal with it than Cleveland. Plus, (echoing others in this thread) Cleveland has a ton of potential opportunities with EC, that don't really exist for CH, as it's right besides one of Cleveland's most happening areas. 

 

I don't think it'll happen, nor do I think it's high priority, but if it does I just hope the city incorporates EC alongside a plan. Without an executed plan it won't do much good.  

3 hours ago, Ethan said:

The blight is there whether it is technically within the city limits or not.

 

Cleveland Heights incorporating EC is an interesting idea, but it doesn't make sense. CH would absorb all of EC problems with even less of an ability to deal with it than Cleveland. Plus, (echoing others in this thread) Cleveland has a ton of potential opportunities with EC, that don't really exist for CH, as it's right besides one of Cleveland's most happening areas. 

 

I don't think it'll happen, nor do I think it's high priority, but if it does I just hope the city incorporates EC alongside a plan. Without an executed plan it won't do much good.  

Aside from not bordering East Cleveland, Euclid is sliding down the same slope that East Cleveland has already taken.  Euclid is just about 20 or so years behind East Cleveland.  Between the crime, loss of income tax base, decline of the schools and overall lessening of quality of life, the parallels are already there.  Based on everything going on, Euclid is in no way able to take on everything that East Cleveland would bring.

 

As for Cleveland Heights, your assessment that it has a lesser ability to deal with the problems pf East Cleveland than Cleveland can is spot on.  Also, Cleveland Heights is also starting to show some of the same signs of trouble that are plaguing Euclid.  It just isn't quite to that point yet.    

Edited September 7, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

I was going to say, Cleveland Heights has a lot of aging infrastructure, housing and tax base issues of its own thanks to our never-ending desire to spread the metropolitan population and taxbase over an ever larger area. The state seems more interested in the latter based on the hundreds of millions it gives each year to expand the region vs. the paltry $10 million it offered to Cleveland to take on East Cleveland's problems. If I was Cleveland's mayor or the county executive, I'd tell the state that East Cleveland will continue to be its problem until you give Cleveland $100 million to rebuild an annexed East Cleveland.

11 minutes ago, KJP said:

I was going to say, Cleveland Heights has a lot of aging infrastructure, housing and tax base issues of its own thanks to our never-ending desire to spread the metropolitan population and taxbase over an ever larger area. The state seems more interested in the latter based on the hundreds of millions it gives each year to expand the region vs. the paltry $10 million it offered to Cleveland to take on East Cleveland's problems. If I was Cleveland's mayor or the county executive, I'd tell the state that East Cleveland will continue to be its problem until you give Cleveland $100 million to rebuild an annexed East Cleveland.

If East Cleveland decided to disincorporate, would it revert to a Township? Wouldn't the County be on the hook to administer the township?

12 minutes ago, freefourur said:

If East Cleveland decided to disincorporate, would it revert to a Township? Wouldn't the County be on the hook to administer the township?

 

In Ohio, I don't think cities can disincorporate. Villages can under Ohio law.  See Subchapter 20:

 

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/chapter-703

The charter government that Cuyahoga Citizens approved several years ago could assume control of East Cleveland, with EC's approval. Most people have only limited knowledge of what the change in county government entailed, but, for one, the charter gives the county the ability to operate as a home-rule municipality on its own. It cannot function as a municipality in a place where an existing municipality does not want it to, but, if East Cleveland were to surrender its charter, the county could take over as the provider of municipal services without any interruption or need for outside approvals.

 

Of course, the county is not really set up to provide municipal services (with some exceptions--the sheriff, for one), so it would have to hire other entities to provide some of the services. It would make sense for Cleveland and Cleveland Heights to provide services under contract to the county. Cleveland is more capable than Cleveland Heights in some ways, but the opposite is also true. They are both far more functional than East Cleveland.

 

Also, it is absurd to suggest that Cleveland Heights would want to annex East Cleveland for a connection to University Circle. No municipality, sometimes even including Cleveland itself, is more closely tied to UC than Cleveland Heights, and this has been true for generations.

4 minutes ago, Vincent_G said:

The charter government that Cuyahoga Citizens approved several years ago could assume control of East Cleveland, with EC's approval. Most people have only limited knowledge of what the change in county government entailed, but, for one, the charter gives the county the ability to operate as a home-rule municipality on its own. It cannot function as a municipality in a place where an existing municipality does not want it to, but, if East Cleveland were to surrender its charter, the county could take over as the provider of municipal services without any interruption or need for outside approvals.

 

Interesting. Under this scenario where EC surrenders its charter, what kind of entity does EC become? Is it still a "municipal corporation"? But don't all corporations have charters? Or are we talking about "disincorporation" and if we are, is that allowed under Ohio law, regardless if the Cuyahoga charter allows it? Or is is simply a written agreement between the municipal corporation of EC and cuyahoga county that all muny functions are now handled by the county by contract and EC remains a city?

And that's the hook. EC will never surrender its charter because those running the city are in denial. They believe they are in charge of something and possess some sort of power and do not want to relinquish it.

10 minutes ago, KJP said:

And that's the hook. EC will never surrender its charter because those running the city are in denial. They believe they are in charge of something and possess some sort of power and do not want to relinquish it.

And this is true of almost every municipality in Cuyahoga County -- mergers and consolidation of municipalities are not likely under current conditions. 

Shaker and University and Cleveland Heights could merge, but never will.  Why should we expect anything different of EC?

 

If the state and county were to seriously want to solve the EC "problem" I'm sure they could find the leverage to do so.  But until then, EC will soldier on through its dysfunction.  And maybe someday a long time from now will finally get its act together.

46 minutes ago, KJP said:

And that's the hook. EC will never surrender its charter because those running the city are in denial. They believe they are in charge of something and possess some sort of power and do not want to relinquish it.

This is true. I've met some of the leaders of E.C. and they are delusional.

 

Couldn't the residents of EC sign onto a referendum to merge with Cleveland. Although, residents might be too emotionally invested in keeping the municipality around. 

51 minutes ago, KJP said:

And that's the hook. EC will never surrender its charter because those running the city are in denial. They believe they are in charge of something and possess some sort of power and do not want to relinquish it.

And this is what angers me. They’ll continue to let their people starve because of their arrogance and ignorance 

I believe the state is gonna have to force the issue. Tie it to the fact that EC has been in fiscal emergency for almost a decade. The legislature doesn’t give a damn about home rule anyway, so just do it. Force the merger. Put $100 million on the table and force it

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

And this is what angers me. They’ll continue to let their people starve because of their arrogance and ignorance 

There have also been several of East Cleveland's top city officials, including multiple mayors, who have been convicted of felonies and have gone to prison.  It goes beyond arrogance and ignorance.  It is also greed.

Actually. oiling the EC-Cle merger machinery might be a very good use for some of that Covid money the city is wonedering what to do with.  Long-term, it would be a good investment. EC could put up all their money, Cle could put up a nice kicker, and maybe Ohio would still be willing to throw in the $15 million (?) they once offered.

42 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Actually. oiling the EC-Cle merger machinery might be a very good use for some of that Covid money the city is wonedering what to do with.  Long-term, it would be a good investment. EC could put up all their money, Cle could put up a nice kicker, and maybe Ohio would still be willing to throw in the $15 million (?) they once offered.

That $15 million was way too low. It’s gonna take like $100 million. I don’t think it’s politically feasible for Cleveland to dump a bunch of money in EC without doing it in the city’s neighborhoods first. That would have to happen before there was any attempt to put money towards EC from Cleveland’s coffers 

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

That $15 million was way too low. It’s gonna take like $100 million.

 

No, you just want to pay off most of EC's bonded debt, which is something like $50-ish million, so the merger is not a huge cash drain on Cleveland.  I think maybe $25 million of Cleveland's Covid cash could do that.  Then rely on city encouragement and some private investment to grow it outward from the UC end of the city.  It wouldn't happen over night - and why should it?  Cleveland has other neighborhoods to worry about. But this might stop the bleeding.

2 hours ago, Dougal said:

No, you just want to pay off most of EC's bonded debt, which is something like $50-ish million, so the merger is not a huge cash drain on Cleveland.  I think maybe $25 million of Cleveland's Covid cash could do that.  Then rely on city encouragement and some private investment to grow it outward from the UC end of the city.  It wouldn't happen over night - and why should it?  Cleveland has other neighborhoods to worry about. But this might stop the bleeding.

You need money to fix it after paying off the debt. That’s why it’s gonna take $100 million altogether 

The problems of East Cleveland affect the whole region. Its problems should be addressed by the county and the state, not a neighboring municipality.

16 hours ago, Dougal said:

Actually. oiling the EC-Cle merger machinery might be a very good use for some of that Covid money the city is wonedering what to do with.  Long-term, it would be a good investment. EC could put up all their money, Cle could put up a nice kicker, and maybe Ohio would still be willing to throw in the $15 million (?) they once offered.

 

East CLE only got $26.6 million in covid funds. CLE got $511.7 million. CLE has needs of its own that far exceed $512M. EC will probably use their $27M to pay themselves bonuses and salaries. Maybe buy one ambulance or two. I don't think we can trust EC to use that money for the public good. In any event, it will take far more than EC's $27M to fix what's needed to make the merger practical for the City of Cleveland. I'd say a grant of $200M-$250M from the state to the city of Cleveland would be required.  Is the State of Ohio paying ANYTHING right now to keep EC afloat as a separate entity? If it is, even the state may see it cheaper for them (the state) in the long run to just give the cash to Cleveland to absorb EC.

11 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

You need money to fix it after paying off the debt. That’s why it’s gonna take $100 million altogether 

I'm not proposing to "fix" EC with this money. I would just like to make merger a less disproportionate burden on Cleveland going into the deal. Reducing EC's debt to an amount that could be serviced by present revenues and eliminating most overhead costs of government is all I'm going for.  "Fixing" it is a different question with a different time scale.

8 minutes ago, Dougal said:

I'm not proposing to "fix" EC with this money. I would just like to make merger a less disproportionate burden on Cleveland going into the deal. Reducing EC's debt to an amount that could be serviced by present revenues and eliminating most overhead costs of government is all I'm going for.  "Fixing" it is a different question with a different time scale.

No, you’re missing what I’m saying. I’m saying the state needs to foot the bill regardless. I’m saying that money should come from Cleveland. It should come from the state. What I’m talking about is the amount of money that it would take to get East Cleveland up to even a basic, fundamental level of city services that the neighborhoods in Cleveland has. Plus the massive amount of demolition necessary, just to get EC ready so that developers can build there again. 

45 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

No, you’re missing what I’m saying. I’m saying the state needs to foot the bill regardless. I’m saying that money should come from Cleveland. It should come from the state. What I’m talking about is the amount of money that it would take to get East Cleveland up to even a basic, fundamental level of city services that the neighborhoods in Cleveland has. Plus the massive amount of demolition necessary, just to get EC ready so that developers can build there again. 

Ok, but I don't see the state kicking in much more than what was previously offered, which I believe was $15 million.  Why would they?  Nor will the state force the issue unless EC completely collapses; and even then the county should probably take the lead. The county, however, seems like a hotbed of inactivity under  its current leadership.

11 hours ago, Dougal said:

Ok, but I don't see the state kicking in much more than what was previously offered, which I believe was $15 million.  Why would they?  Nor will the state force the issue unless EC completely collapses; and even then the county should probably take the lead. The county, however, seems like a hotbed of inactivity under  its current leadership.

Cuyahoga County's leadership is nearly as inept on the leadership level as East Cleveland's is on the city level.  The county commissioners and the leadership system that "evolved" into the county executive position has been plagued with scandal, mis-management and personal "gain".  The same thing holds true with those running East Cleveland.  

The speculation says the GE Current may move from East Cleveland to it's parner's home in Greenville, SC or someplace else.  It's hard to be surprised.  This is another reason for EC to be put out of its misery as soon as possible before GE Lighting follows. The GE Current executive slate is planned to be located in both home cities for now.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/manufacturing/current-names-new-executive-team-after-merger

^ Although the most common location for the executive staff is ‘remote’, which I find interesting for staff at that level. 
FWIW the CEO rents a place downtown. 

Oh man, here we go again. I hope the powers that be are able to figure out a way to dissolve the independent city government of East Cleveland. It just isn’t working. From my perspective, best option is to merge with Cleveland, but they have to figure out a way to get EC council and officials on board or out of the way. That’s a tricky political challenge. Just a sad situation all around. 

 

 

On 8/12/2022 at 12:43 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Oh man, here we go again. I hope the powers that be are able to figure out a way to dissolve the independent city government of East Cleveland. It just isn’t working. From my perspective, best option is to merge with Cleveland, but they have to figure out a way to get EC council and officials on board or out of the way. That’s a tricky political challenge. Just a sad situation all around. 

 

 

what benefit would Cleveland get by taking it over? I can't see any positive at all. It no longer will get the city up to 400,000 residents. The additional tax base would be negligible. It will just be a giant money pit stretching already stretched thin city services (police, fire, EMS). It just needs to be dissolved.

Clean slate needed- infrastructure rebuilds and plenty demolitions required. However, EC is in better shape now than it was five years ago regarding the amount of vacant houses which have been demolished by the Land Bank. The city’s location is great and still retains its urbanity though much of it has been destroyed.

10 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

what benefit would Cleveland get by taking it over? I can't see any positive at all. It no longer will get the city up to 400,000 residents. The additional tax base would be negligible. It will just be a giant money pit stretching already stretched thin city services (police, fire, EMS). It just needs to be dissolved.

 

For once I mostly agree with you. In its current condition, East Cleveland is of no benefit to Cleveland. However … If more land is cleared especially in the former industrial areas near the rail line, it could be a benefit to Cleveland in locating new employers and mixed use districts. It might even justify extending the Red Line. Even in its most recent incarnation, it would have actually performed better than the SEPTA rail extension to King of Prussia, PA which is moving forward.

18 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

what benefit would Cleveland get by taking it over? I can't see any positive at all. It no longer will get the city up to 400,000 residents. The additional tax base would be negligible. It will just be a giant money pit stretching already stretched thin city services (police, fire, EMS). It just needs to be dissolved.

Why do you think GE gave up on Nela Park?  For a relatively small amount of debt assumption ($20-some million after state and county incentives previously proposed), Cleveland could put an end to a major blight on the landscape. The potential tax revenues from UC spillover growth would pay for it.

 

Dissolution, as you say might work too. If the city of EC devolved to a township, the county would be a major and monied player in its future. Amazingly, however, there is some local pride left that stands in the way of this.  It would take a major governmental failure (police and firefighters quit?) to get people's attention. 

What else does East Cleveland have in terms of large employers other than GE Lighting?  If they end up leaving, then East Cleveland may as well turn off the lights (no pun intended).

On 8/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, LibertyBlvd said:

What else does East Cleveland have in terms of large employers other than GE Lighting?  If they end up leaving, then East Cleveland may as well turn off the lights (no pun intended).

I don't think there are any large employers left in EC.  The school district might be the second largest employer after what's left at Nela Park.

There are some small industrial outfits, but nothing big.

 

Despite the crime and reputation that comes with it, there are good people still living in EC and they have a lot of pride in their city.  What it was, what it could become again.  EC is not all "thugs" and "druggies" -- and the residents generally are not desperate to merge with anyone.  (See the East Cleveland CDC, NOAH, and their executive director, Trevelle Harp, as a group that should be supported in their efforts to improve their city).

https://noahorganizing.org/

 

In my opinion, East Cleveland isn't big enough to get out of this hole on their own.  And as long as Cleveland has other problems to deal with, it will have to be the county or the state or private foundations (or a combination) to give them the boost they need to become a better place to live and work.   We already know that the Republicans in state government don't understand why East Cleveland can't just "pull itself up by its own bootstraps," so I wouldn't expect any help there.   It might take the county and private foundations, working together with the people in EC who want to see improvements, to pull EC back from the brink. 

 

Doing so would benefit the wider community of Cuyahoga County.