I hope this is a sign of things to come: An optimistic young Cincinnati native writes an optimistic editorial in the Enquirer, and the FIRST THREE PAGES of comments are all optimistic!

 

City's future exciting if we take risks now

 

I would like to thank Krista Ramsey for the inspiring column "The Millennials just might prove us wrong" (March 26). As a proud 2009 graduate of Syracuse University who currently lives with two roommates - Mom and Dad - I could not be more excited about the future, especially, Cincinnati's future.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100407/EDIT02/4070380/City-s-future-exciting-if-we-take-risks-now

 

 

 

I find it odd when people call Cincy "rust belt".

Data-wise, especially in manufacturing - Cincinnati is definitely a part of the Rust Belt - but because it has a rather diverse economy and unique culture, it doesn't quite fit.

 

Actually, that would be a good question. What are Cincinnati's peer-aspirant cities?

 

Cbus, Indy, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and ?

Cincinnati has always had a fairly diverse economy. That's why it never took the big hit the rust belt cities have taken. I know manufacturing has historically played a big part, but the city was never a one-trick pony. This, in my opinion, makes the "rust belt" tag inappropriate.

 

I hope you're right with your prediction, and I hope the article's author is right. Cincinnati has, by far, more unrealized potential than any city I've ever known. I've heard comparisons to Savannah and New Orleans, but I think a complete Cincinnati would better be compared to San Francisco.

 

Chicago could play LA to Cincinnati's San Francisco.

^I have always bee a big fan of Cincy since my college days....but....San Fransico???

^Keep in mind Cincy gave SF Joseph B. Strauss, the architect of that sexy ass Golden Gate!  They're already connected historically speaking.  In time!!!

^I have always bee a big fan of Cincy since my college days....but....San Fransico???

Cincy has architecture on par with SF, with its own unique brand of old school east coast urban buildings that run the gamut from tenement to mansion to synagogue. The arts scene (like Cleveland's) is truly beyond what it "should have". The hills give it a similarity to SF.

 

If Cincy restored its architecture, built a nice transit network, brought back its brewing culture, and did just a couple more things to add spice (like do some planning around the public steps), Cincy would be impossibly more relevant than anything off the coasts outside Chicago. It wouldn't have the might of NYC, LA, or Chicago, but it would have the knock-your-socks-off charm of San Francisco.

Awesome statement:

 

"I take a risk every day at this point in my life. Most of us take risks daily, whether we know it or not. It's scary. Sometimes I succeed, and sometimes I outright fail. But I get out of it."

I think Cincinnati's peers are Saint Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City. Perhaps to some extent, Minneapolis. Most people I know in Louisville, Indy, Columbus and Milwaukee consider Cincy to be arguably in a higher tier, if only by a little. So that's coming from them, not from me.

 

And I too believe that Cincinnati, if it stays on the trajectory it's been on the last couple years, would certainly become culturally on par with Minneapolis. But never Chicago. Shit, if it were to even approach Nashville or New Orleans in cultural significance, it would have to work its german/OTR/river city heritage to its absolute upper limit.

 

The sad part about its cultural heritage is that it used to have a major music scene - King Records - but bluegrass, blues, early rock n' roll, even some pretty good jazz. It's always had a good classical music scene, even new classical music. I think the decline in these has more to do with the nationalization of American culture than anything Cincy specific - beyond that the region's relative lack of new working class migrants since the end of the Great Southern migrations in the 1970s.

 

The mega region of Southwest Ohio could be a serious international metropolis if we can figure out what to do about Dayton and find something useful to do in Wilmington.

^I have always bee a big fan of Cincy since my college days....but....San Fransico???

 

Agreed, I think the similarities end with the hills.  Portland would be a more appropriate (and tangible) aspiration.

^I have always bee a big fan of Cincy since my college days....but....San Fransico???

 

Agreed, I think the similarities end with the hills. Portland would be a more appropriate (and tangible) aspiration.

This baffles me. Other than transit, what does Portland have that Cincinnati might aspire to? Cincinnati is a city with a prominent role in American history (complete with a built environment which goes along with this) and a strong local culture borne of history and tradition. Portland could only wish it had these things. If you want to set the bar lower than San Francisco, try New Orleans.

I think Cincinnati's peers are Saint Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City. Perhaps to some extent, Minneapolis. Most people I know in Louisville, Indy, Columbus and Milwaukee consider Cincy to be arguably in a higher tier, if only by a little. So that's coming from them, not from me.

 

Maybe 10 years ago or something but I don't know anybody in Columbus or Indianapolis (don't know about Louisville or Milwaukee) that thinks they are a tier below Cincinnati or Kansas City.  When I lived in Columbus, many people frequently mentioned how its "peer cities" were Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis.  Strangely, Columbusites I met DID express they felt Columbus was a tier below Cleveland but that's probably due to the higher amount of transplants from NE Ohio boosting up "the Land."

I find it odd when people call Cincy "rust belt".

 

Cincinnati isn't in the "rust belt." Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Youngstown, Portsmouth (Oh.), Ironton (Oh.) are rust belt communities, ones that suffered a major loss of their industrial base. Cincinnati has never lost that, although it has declined in many other ways.

In what way would we want Cincinnati to be like New Orleans?

In what way would we want Cincinnati to be like New Orleans?

Embracing and celebrating the city's history and culture, rather than denying it exists, and leveraging it and its historic urban fabric for national and international recognition.

 

Many people I meet outside Cincinnati (and many inside!) don't realize that the city is so much older than other inland cities. Cincinnati was the first boomtown -- it was a bustling city when Chicago was a remote trading post. Cincinnati's architecture is wholly unique and resembles east coast cities more than those which are geographically closer. (Note the similarities between OTR and Hoboken.)

I think Cincinnati's peers are Saint Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City. Perhaps to some extent, Minneapolis. Most people I know in Louisville, Indy, Columbus and Milwaukee consider Cincy to be arguably in a higher tier, if only by a little. So that's coming from them, not from me.

 

Maybe 10 years ago or something but I don't know anybody in Columbus or Indianapolis (don't know about Louisville or Milwaukee) that thinks they are a tier below Cincinnati or Kansas City. When I lived in Columbus, many people frequently mentioned how its "peer cities" were Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis. Strangely, Columbusites I met DID express they felt Columbus was a tier below Cleveland but that's probably due to the higher amount of transplants from NE Ohio boosting up "the Land."

 

Chris, I don't agree with this and I think you don't either. If anything it's your pride that's creeping through.

 

There are too many examples to "prove" this point, but in then end it's all subjective. Obviously, due to the close proximity of Cincy and Cbus, we're going to get a lot of back and forth travelers. Even for single events. Cbus residents are always calling in after Reds games to discuss whatever it is that took place during the game ... blah blah blah. I've heard on more than one occasion, "Columbus is catching up" ... in a positive way, but it hasn't surpassed nor is equal to the other 2C's.

 

A lot of things play into this ... history, historic populations (I think this is why Cincy gets down on itself so much even in 2010 ... it used to be one of the largest cities in the U.S.), and because of the major industries that made us grow so fast, well, that ambiance is still here ... whether we lost 300,000 people or not. Not to mention the corporate presence here compared to ... hell ... the midwest.

One annoying thing about living in Columbus is all the Indians crap that stores think Cbusites might want to buy. Target here doesn't even carry Reds merch., though Meijer carries both.

I think Cincy and Charlotte have some similarities that Cincy could capitalize on if it really wants to become a modern boomtown.  They both are "border" Cities whose metros expand out of state.  They both have a good large corp. presence in the area.  Both have miserable summers IMO, but while Cincy's winters can't compare to Charlotte's they are much more mild than places like Chicago, Minny and Cleveland.... which really acts as a deterrent for the latter three in this day and age of air conditioning when everyone is running for what once were considered uncomfortable areas of the country due to extreme heat/humidity/swampiness.

There is no doubt that there is some positive vibe happening in Cincy.  I think the April 2001 riots were a wake up call, that shook the corporate and government leadership into cooperative action.  It seems that there is more of a shared vision than existed in the 80s or 90s.  We certainly still have our hurdles, but the whole feeling is different.

I hate the Enquirer comments. "I only drive downtown for Reds games with my kids and then I get out". What is it about downtown that people think is unsafe? Maybe its because I grew up in the Detroit area....OTR is not as scary as some places on Detroit's east side...so maybe I just compare the two too much. But I don't understand it. I was training a new person at work and all these people kept telling her not to "stray too far from Mt. Adams". Then she asked me what was so dangerous about downtown and OTR. People make it sound like there are knifefights and rolling gun battles every hour on the hour.

 

Sometimes I get pissed at people and say they have no idea what the meaning of dangerous is.

When I first came here and saw neighborhoods like Mt. Adams, Columbia-Tusculum, and Fairview, I thought "wow, this is like a little San Francisco."  The terrain, architecture, and overall urban layout is very similar, though at a smaller scale.  Coming from Chicago, I've been amazed that I can find virtually no similarities between both urban and suburban vernacular architecture in both cities.  Even Indianapolis has a lot more Chicago type buildings.  Over-the-Rhine is unlike anything in the midwest, it's more evocative of Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, or parts of NYC, and that's no accident.  Cincinnati's rank as the 6th largest city in the country came in 1850 when it was on par with those other places, and it remained in the top 10 until after 1900! 

 

The top 10 numbers from 1850 are quite interesting:

New York City:  515,000

Baltimore:  169,000

Boston:  136,000

Philadelphia:  121,000

New Orleans:  116,000

Cincinnati: 115,000

Brooklyn:  96,000

St. Louis:  77,000

Spring Garden District (PA):  58,000

Albany:  50,000

 

Other cities that Cincinnati gets compared to were barely on the map at the time: 

Pittsburgh:  46,000

Louisville:  43,000

San Francisco:  34,000

Chicago:  29,000

Columbus:  17,000

Cleveland:  17,000

Indianapolis:  8,000

 

Now, to be fair, little from the 1850s remains, but it's interesting to see how things had changed by 1900:

New York City:  3,437,000

Chicago:  1,698,000

Philadelphia:  1,293,000

St. Louis:  575,000

Boston:  560,000

Baltimore:  508,000

Cleveland:  381,000

Buffalo:  352,000

San Francisco:  342,000

Cincinnati:  325,000

 

Pittsburgh:  321,000

New Orleans:  287,000

Louisville:  204,000

Indianapolis:  169,000

Columbus:  125,000

 

So back in the mid 1800s, Cincinnati's peers were New Orleans, Philadelphia, Boston, and to a lesser extent Baltimore and St. Louis.  By the turn of the 20th century, it was still New Orleans, but also San Francisco, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh.  Things get muddy as you get to the present, because of the disparity between the incorporated city and its metro area.  The fate of some cities have brought them back down to levels more on par with what they were 150 years ago.  Baltimore and St. Louis for example greatly surpassed Cincinnati in the 20th century, but they've since crashed to where they're a lot more like Cincinnati than they used to be.  I'd argue that St. Louis' growth parallels that of Chicago's more than Cincinnati's, and its downfall is similar to Detroit's.  Cleveland [edit-I originally said Columbus accidentally] seems to be more like a smaller Detroit than anything else in its growth and decline.  Indianapolis and Columbus are a lot like each other, and while Louisville is another river city it's more the size of Indianapolis and Columbus. 

 

Ok, so this is getting off-topic, but here's what I see in all this.  Cincinnati's "kindred spirit" if you will, seems to be New Orleans.  Both grew at the same time, and have a similar riverboat history.  Pittsburgh has a lot of similarities terrain-wise, and Baltimore has similar dense row house neighborhoods.  San Francisco is more alike than it might seem at first, but it's just at a much larger scale.  The thing is, New Orleans, Baltimore, and San Francisco milk their history for all it's worth, and Cincinnati doesn't even respect what it has, let alone flaunt it.  If Cincinnatians could get behind some aggressive historic architecture preservation, tours, and neighborhood "experiences" then we'd have a real winner.  It'll be a tough sell to closed-minded locals, but we need to stop looking at neighborhoods like OTR as a liability and see them for the huge opportunities they really are.  The French Quarter would pale in comparison to a restored OTR, especially if the brewing history and culture was played up.   

Despite fleeting attempts, the anti-German hysteria and Prohibition of the post-war (I, that is) era severed a lot of Cincinnati's history from the life of the city going forward. Then you throw in the racial problems (which New Orleans, Baltimore, and Philly certainly have in spades) that makes telling that history more complicated. I think that over time the Freedom Center could do a better job with making the connection for its visitors - grounding the history of blacks as well as the white community. The problem is whose history are we going to milk and there have been forces particularly focused on OTR that don't want the city to romanticize the German heritage because they feel in pushes them out of the city's history.

Embracing and celebrating the city's history and culture, rather than denying it exists, and leveraging it and its historic urban fabric for national and international recognition.

 

Many people I meet outside Cincinnati (and many inside!) don't realize that the city is so much older than other inland cities. Cincinnati was the first boomtown -- it was a bustling city when Chicago was a remote trading post. Cincinnati's architecture is wholly unique and resembles east coast cities more than those which are geographically closer. (Note the similarities between OTR and Hoboken.)

yeah, i could see it in the context of how we treat the history or culture. I don't think we need to try to be like New Orleans in terms of corruption, terrible schools or poverty. 

I guess when I said "milk their history" I was referring more to the remaining architecture and streetcars or cable cars.  Those are tangible things that get no respect here, and which continue to be tossed aside. 

I think Cincinnati's peers are Saint Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City. Perhaps to some extent, Minneapolis. Most people I know in Louisville, Indy, Columbus and Milwaukee consider Cincy to be arguably in a higher tier, if only by a little. So that's coming from them, not from me.

 

Maybe 10 years ago or something but I don't know anybody in Columbus or Indianapolis (don't know about Louisville or Milwaukee) that thinks they are a tier below Cincinnati or Kansas City. When I lived in Columbus, many people frequently mentioned how its "peer cities" were Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis. Strangely, Columbusites I met DID express they felt Columbus was a tier below Cleveland but that's probably due to the higher amount of transplants from NE Ohio boosting up "the Land."

 

Chris, I don't agree with this and I think you don't either. If anything it's your pride that's creeping through.

 

There are too many examples to "prove" this point, but in then end it's all subjective. Obviously, due to the close proximity of Cincy and Cbus, we're going to get a lot of back and forth travelers. Even for single events. Cbus residents are always calling in after Reds games to discuss whatever it is that took place during the game ... blah blah blah. I've heard on more than one occasion, "Columbus is catching up" ... in a positive way, but it hasn't surpassed nor is equal to the other 2C's.

 

A lot of things play into this ... history, historic populations (I think this is why Cincy gets down on itself so much even in 2010 ... it used to be one of the largest cities in the U.S.), and because of the major industries that made us grow so fast, well, that ambiance is still here ... whether we lost 300,000 people or not. Not to mention the corporate presence here compared to ... hell ... the midwest.

 

No, it ain't pride, it's fact.  Indianapolis and Columbus are now the size/tier/peer of Cincinnati (and Cleveland's MSA).  That's fact.  While it's without question Cincinnati has been a major player for a longer period, today Columbus and Indianapolis don't view the city as a "regional center" or whatever because of the growth.  You can fool yourself in thinking people in Columbus still view themselves in a lower tier but that's just not accurate today.  People in Columbus DO go to Reds games along with Indians and Pirates games.  But let's not lie here and say Cincinnatians don't come to Columbus to shop (check any Easton or Polaris parking lot to see the amount of Hamilton County stickers are there), go to an OSU event, or nightclub/Short North.  Both cities enjoy each other.

I have to agree with ColDay here.  I don't know whether or not Cincinnatti is a boom town today as I don't really keep up on it, but I do know it is not a regional powerhouse as is Minney, Chicago and San Francisco.  Those cities, especially Chicago and San Francisco have spent the last 150 years building and maintaining regional powerhouse status.  This isn't something that occurs over a 10 year span.  In short, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Indy, C-bus all pretty much share a similar importance and status in the region.  They may look slightly different, but as far as opportunity and cost goes, they are all on the same level IMHO.  I will not use Chicago Cleveland and Detroit as comparison simply to demographics, weather and location in the US. 

Thank you.

I know this probably doesn't mean much to most of you... But I am a BIG Phish fan (the band).  They played two Sold Out night at US BANK Arena last November.  Now I know that those of you that may have heard about them or of them may sterotype the fans as hippies, blah, blah blah.  But when it boils down to it - MOST are not.

 

Needless to say - there is much discusstion about the band doing a 4 night Halloween show in Cinci this year.  This means hotels and literally thousands of fans making the trek spending thousands of dollars.

 

I bring this up b/c I ask you to check out the message board comments...  Almost all of them LOVED their visit to Cinci and sing praises for the city.  Most were incredibly impressed with the cleanliness of downtown area, etc.  From many outsiders perspectives, Cinci is a great place!  Myself included!

 

http://phantasytour.com/phish/boards_thread.cgi?threadID=2271339&page=1

I think we are overplaying San Fran's economic significance and health. It is mostly a playground for the very rich these days. San Jose actually has the functioning economy. I agree with those who say Indy and Cbus have basically caught up to Cincy though as state capitals there are different processes at work.

Well, San Francisco is the banking and financial center of the entire West Coast so I'd say it has strong significance.  If anything, San Jose's is diminishing thanks to high-tech corps going to India, China, and even the European Union.

NYC, SanFran and Chicago are the urban meccas of this country IMO.  No other City can really compare with the density and sheer size of their cores.

I don't know exactly what form Cincinnati's "identity" will take as the basin revitalizes, but it will be something.

 

This was on my mind last night as I was eating one of those terribly delicious gourmet hot dogs at The Senate, staring out the window at the sun setting over the colorful buildings across the street. It struck me that I couldn't think of any other city where I could get quite the same experience: this kind of intensely rich Americana. As though hot dogs were some ancient folk food and I was eating a modern rendition, and Cincinnati was actually 900 years old and I was in the "old city." I think this concept can be repeated and expanded throughout the basin.

I am from Louisville originally so can give some perspectives on that city.  Growing up in the 70's and 80's, Cincinnati was definitely perceived like an "older brother" type of city.  I'm assuming that's still true now. To some extent Cincy was viewed as the nearest "big city".  But more importantly, Louisvillians never got upset about playing second fiddle to Cincy or being talked about that way.

 

This is in huge contrast in how people in Louisville view say Indy and Nashville, cities they hold in contempt and refuse to acknowledge as anything but at best equal to (and probably inferior to) Louisville itself.

 

Indy is three hours from Chicago. It's an easy day trip by car. This makes Chicago the clear "big city" for Indy.  Virtually no one in Indy ever thinks of Cincy except for IKEA, Kings Island, a few Reds fans.

 

The IKEA thing does show that Cincy retains some super-regional assets.

 

Cincinnati is also a bit bigger than Indy or Columbus, though certainly by much less than it used to be.  A lot of Cincy's "growth" has come from adding counties to the MSA, but if you compare like to like, I'd probably put Cincinnati about 200-300,000 people larger than Indianapolis - or around 12-15%. Louisville is much smaller.

 

Idk, but  i do know both Indy and Columbus add tons more counties than Cincy to their CSA than Cincy has to itself..

Well, San Francisco is the banking and financial center of the entire West Coast so I'd say it has strong significance. If anything, San Jose's is diminishing thanks to high-tech corps going to India, China, and even the European Union.

 

I believe the San Fran region has lost more people this past decade than Detroit.

I will not use Chicago Cleveland and Detroit as comparison simply to demographics, weather and location in the US.

 

Ahh, this keeps Cleveland safely out of Cincinnati's reach. I see. I see.

 

;)

 

 

Well, San Francisco is the banking and financial center of the entire West Coast so I'd say it has strong significance. If anything, San Jose's is diminishing thanks to high-tech corps going to India, China, and even the European Union.

 

I believe the San Fran region has lost more people this past decade than Detroit.

 

Probably.  It's one of the most affluent regions of this country and they were certainly hurt by this recession.

Chris, deep down inside ... I know you know the truth. ;) ... you remember those responses I was getting from folks at BoMa last time I was in Cbus, don't you? ;)

 

This is a good discussion. Interesting to read.

Or deep down inside, you can't accept the truth :D.

 

And yeah...BoMA...you...right...

Idk, but i do know both Indy and Columbus add tons more counties than Cincy to their CSA than Cincy has to itself..

 

CSA is rarely used. MSA is the most preferred measure. Cincy has 15 counties IIRC, many more than Indy or Cbus. However, some of them are tiny Kentucky counties which hardly count.

 

The key is my book is that a lot of the talk of how Cincy is now over two million (or over three million if you add in Dayton) is simply map manipulation, not real growth.

 

FACT: Cincinnati is lagging nationally in almost any real demographic or economic indicator.

 

Haha I know Sammy!

 

Cincinnati's problem is Dayton and the unmitigated sprawl-disaster between them.  Whenever Cin-Day starts working together with the Warren/Butler metroplex, things will start improving dramatically.

 

SW Ohio needs something like Lexington's "Fayette Alliance" and "Bluegrass Conservancy." 

 

An branch of Cincinnati's Charter Committee in Dayton could be a welcome change as well.

 

A regional light rail network could be an excellent idea.  The whole aerospace hub idea could tie it together with Wright-Patt connected to the universities and big employers like GE. 

 

A megaregional airport on the 3C/light rail line between the two cores could be a boon as well.

 

ps - Kudos to the Enquirer for realizing their fate is tied to Cincinnati's.

arenn - but the growth isn't in small counties at the extreme edges in KY, IN (also very small counties), or eastern Ohio. Cincinnati also hasn't filled up its home county anything like Indy or Columbus has because western half is practically non-urbanizable and the same could go for most of SE Indiana and the southern reaches of NKY. The growth came almost entirely in Boone Cty in KY and Butler and Warren Cty's in Ohio. Columbus and Indy have big flat counties that means the sprawl fills every inch, which simply isn't the case in Cincy. Indy does have 10 (most of which are larger than Cincy's) in its MSA.

Oops, I spoke too soon. Someone has written in with a response op-ed, and the Enquirer headlined it in the section, which they didn't even do with the original. This person is similar in age, but his piece is incredibly uninformed, and his picture is terrible and looks hastily provided. My guess is that the Enquirer went and solicited his piece.

 

Head-in-sand optimism doesn't help

 

Sammy Kanter's Your Voice column, "City's future exciting if we take risks now" (April 7), reflects poorly not only on millennials but also The Enquirer. This sort of rose-tinted ra-ra piece is exactly why we face many of our current problems. Rather than see reality as it is and consider actual public policy, residents of this city are asked to suspend disbelief and blithely pledge tax dollars to ill-conceived projects that promise a shortcut to a better future.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100410/EDIT02/4100371/Head-in-sand+optimism+doesn+t+help

 

 

He shoots himself in the foot in the second half of the article.  First he cries about how we, as a city/state/country are wasting money, then he goes on about how Cincinnati is a place to be proud of, and that "brain drain" is a problem that must be dealt with.  Well, DUH!  Projects like the streetcar are things designed to do exactly that.  What a schmuck. 

IMO - his main beef is with Democrats and the government spending that's gaining hype with tea partiers and Republicans more than the article. He looked for a way to funnel his concerns, and there you have it.

^ Agreed. It's similar to how every single article on the Enquirer site, regardless of its topic, gets twisted in the comment section to somehow be related to Obama/Obamacare. It's the new Godwin's Law.

Talk about uninformed: he says "We face the same problem with unsustainable pension schemes on a federal level as we do municipally."

 

Except the federal government's defined benefit pension plan only applies to federal employees hired before 1986.  Everyone hired in the last 24 years has been covered by a defined contribution plan (similar to a 401K.)

 

There is no "unsustainable pension schemes on a federal level."

Yup, Putnam and Brown County have no business being part of the Indy MSA. Both Indy and Cincy benefited from more counties inflating their MSA size over time, though Indy did have one legitimate metro county taken out of its MSA after it petitioned to be removed.  Regardless, I think the notion that Cincy is 200-300,000 people bigger than Indy is fair.

^ Honestly go by urbanized area and you will get a real feel of the difference.