This could probably go in the medical mart topic but i didn't see a discussion on the malls so i put it here.

 

 

<b>Public meetings for medical mart, Moussa Salti and new development near Hopkins: Whatever Happened to?</b>

 

 

But now, the public will have a chance to weigh in May 6 at a Cleveland planning commission meeting, which will focus on the surface of the downtown Mall. And May 27, after an MMPI presentation to a joint meeting of the city planning and landmarks commissions and downtown design review committee.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/post_270.html

 

 

 

It would be great if they could make it into something that people actually would want to go to and spend time in. Fountains, a nice playground would be interesting, a unique fountain, just random things that would make it more alive

Projects related to medical mart to get public discussion; costs are an issue

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- It has been clear for months that the $425 million project to build a new medical mart and renovate the convention center represents a huge opportunity to renew big chunks of downtown Cleveland.

 

Think of a spectacular new landscape on Malls B and C, which double as the roof of the city's convention center. Or a handsomely renovated Public Auditorium. Or new connections from the convention center to the Lake Erie waterfront or hotels.

 

..........................

 

Cleveland lawyer Jeff Appelbaum, who represents the county in its partnership with MMPI, is expected to announce at a county commissioners meeting that MMPI has hired Gustafson Guthrie Nichol, a Seattle landscape architecture firm, to work on a new vision for Malls B and C.

 

...........................

 

A public forum on the future of the Mall, organized by civic and nonprofit organizations, is scheduled for 5:30 p.m. Thursday, May 6, at the Louis Stokes Wing Auditorium of the Cleveland Public Library, 325 Superior Ave.

 

..........................

 

Ken Silliman, chief of staff to Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, said Wednesday it's possible, for example, that separating Public Auditorium from the existing convention center and then reattaching it to a renovated convention center may impose expenses on the city for work inside the auditorium not covered by the county's $425 million investment.

 

He declined to give specifics, saying that the city is negotiating the terms of a $20 million transfer of the convention center to the county to enable the big project, and "it's not Mayor Jackson's practice to negotiate in the media."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/04/projects_related_to_medical_ma.html

Cleveland lawyer Jeff Appelbaum, who represents the county in its partnership with MMPI, is expected to announce at a county commissioners meeting that MMPI has hired Gustafson Guthrie Nichol, a Seattle landscape architecture firm, to work on a new vision for Malls B and C.

 

This is exciting because Gustafson Guthrie Nichol designed Lurie Garden in Chicago - part of the widely acclaimed Millennium Park.  Hopefully this is a sign that Malls B and C will have a truly awesome design.

Anyone affiliated with parkworks here?  It seems like a natural fit.

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

 

On top of the Mall?  There are plenty of other places downtown where something like that can be placed.  A more obvious and desireable location would be FEB/WHD as it already has: 

• A residential component with more on the way
  
• On a natural trail
  
• In an area that is multi use and there for other fitness/health attractions can be added.  IE.  running/biking lanes, workout stations
  
• Accessible Transportation
  

Why would you want or think that the malls would be a good location for a tennis/basketball court?

At the risk of putting words into his mouth, I think his idea was to create more people-activity there. I agree with that but I think there are better locations for basketball-tennis courts. What kind of activities might draw people to the mall yet promote an atmosphere that's more welcoming to wider groups of people?

 

Maybe we need a malls thread and put it in City Discussion.

At the risk of putting words into his mouth, I think his idea was to create more people-activity there. I agree with that but I think there are better locations for basketball-tennis courts. What kind of activities might draw people to the mall yet promote an atmosphere that's more welcoming to wider groups of people?

 

Maybe we need a malls thread and put it in City Discussion.

 

Yes, that's what i was thinking KJP.

 

From what I see, people pretty much only use the malls during lunch time(barring any special event).  I'm thinking that giving them something to do besides sitting and enjoying the weather may promote more use.  I can see lunch time and after work leagues starting up and giving the space more energy.  Employees already use the courts at sherwin williams' riverfront facility during lunch, and, although not downtown, I've seen people playing soccer during lunch at Progressive's campus on rt.91.  I think courts would have a pretty solid draw during lunch and potentially after work.  Plus, its in a central area, right between all the companies on PS and those in the CBD.

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

 

Niko, I really like this idea.  And what a cool place to play tennis, basketball, bocci, etc. 

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

 

Niko, I really like this idea.  And what a cool place to play tennis, basketball, bocci, etc. 

 

the idea is great, but seriously how will that be used year round and after 6pm and on weekends?

 

It's in the middle of a civic center.  To the East or West would be great and use the area for movies, etc.  As a creative thinker I can't see how this would work from either a, financial and neighborhood use, point.

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

 

Niko, I really like this idea. And what a cool place to play tennis, basketball, bocci, etc.

 

the idea is great, but seriously how will that be used year round and after 6pm and on weekends?

 

It's in the middle of a civic center. To the East or West would be great and use the area for movies, etc. As a creative thinker I can't see how this would work from either a, financial and neighborhood use, point.

 

99% of the parks around here can't be used year round.

 

I think having it roughly equidistant from the avenue district, reserve square, 668 Euclid, E 4th lofts, WHD, Flats, etc..(they're all less than a mile) is the best place to put it.  It would be better to funnel everyone towards one set of facilities rather than spread them out between 2 or more.

Can we get basketball and/or tennis courts down there in addition to the random benches?

 

Niko, I really like this idea.  And what a cool place to play tennis, basketball, bocci, etc. 

 

the idea is great, but seriously how will that be used year round and after 6pm and on weekends?

 

It's in the middle of a civic center.  To the East or West would be great and use the area for movies, etc.  As a creative thinker I can't see how this would work from either a, financial and neighborhood use, point.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't need to be a permanent court, rather a designated multipurpose area that could be easily set up for basketball, tennis, movable stages, etc. Then you could bring in hoops for things such as corporate challenge or YMCA basketball or nets and fencing for tennis tourneys, stages for concerts and so on and so forth.

Not the place for basketball or tennis IMO.

^Agree

Millenium Park in Chicago (which looks like it will be a model) had the park grille, in winter they have a large rink for ice skating, in the summer it becomes a large patio for the restaurant, and on the side they have some recreational things like bag toss.  Along with the band shell, Crowne fountain, Peristyle (?sp - semicircular greek columns), the gardens and the "bean" it is one of the attractions of the park

 

I proposed somewhere that part of the ground floor of Public hall be made into a restaurant, and have the rink/patio/recreation area go up next to it

Millenium Park in Chicago (which looks like it will be a model) had the park grille, in winter they have a large rink for ice skating, in the summer it becomes a large patio for the restaurant, and on the side they have some recreational things like bag toss.  Along with the band shell, Crowne fountain, Peristyle (?sp - semicircular greek columns), the gardens and the "bean" it is one of the attractions of the park

 

I proposed somewhere that part of the ground floor of Public hall be made into a restaurant, and have the rink/patio/recreation area go up next to it

 

And what is under all that?  We're comparing kidney beans to mangos.

^a very large parking garage?  What is your point?

Saw this on the front page of the paper today. I have no problem with enhancing this area...

 

However, it would be a wise to carry a vision that would expand the idea farther and to strive for a more green/sustainable landscape. Don't let suburban thinking and "Chemical Lawn" be the driving force influences of design.

 

By this I mean eliminating the uses of carcinogenic lawn chemicals/pesticides as many other cities have done  (see www.beyondpesticides.org for further information) and as often as possible, strive to use Ohio natural heritage plants...natives that were here when say... Moses landed which are more suitable for this climate because they evolved here without the help of humans. (www.prairienursery.com or www.ohioprairienursery.com has a great selections of appropriate plants)

 

By using as much as possible....we can reduce chemical use and oil dependency, while opening up a while new door for learning and new jobs associated with stewarding this new kind of living landscape. It can also be a great P.R. move to demonstrate complete turnarounds from the city's polluting past...and help to can those burning river jokes once and for all. What is so impressive about The Royal Botanical gardens (Sydney) which is right in the core of the CBD, is the beneficial bio-diversity that co-exists perfectly with the city life. This is hailed and praised as such a treasured attribute of that city and it presents no problems, but many benefits. many here need to be better informed about how such can provide many benefits and stop thinking like a mental midget with the ideology that is worried about a bird pooping on their car.

 

I hope we can do the same as cities like that instead of the dated sterile suburban lifeless turf grass scene, where the only thing seen moving is a lawnmower and the only fragrance you smell is courtesy of Monsanto or Ortho. The website above that features a company based in Wisconsin, has done many large scale plantings in urban areas and has a great resume in such consultation. We cannot be a "green city" and create an energy dependent and lake polluting landscape.

^a very large parking garage?  What is your point?

 

I knew that.  my point, a parking garage under all that isn't bothered.

 

Having all those thing above our convention center most likely would be.

 

I think all that stuff should be developed along the FEB curving around to CBS and NCH.  It's a huge added bonus for the neighborhood.

Well, the most popular attraction at Millenium park is the "bean", but Cloudgate sculpture. Its on the roof of the restaurant, as well as a portion of the lawn for the band shell. 

I am pretty sure if you can have fine dining without disturbing people, you can have a noisy convention center.

I would be in favor of an ice skating rink, but I doubt that is in the plans.  But wouldn't it be cool to have a rink that doubles as a very large fountain or an artificial pond during the warmer months, whereas B-ball and Tennis courts would only get 6 or so months of use out of the year.

^you could turn the rink into those courts in the summer, or anything you wanted to

^you could turn the rink into those courts in the summer, or anything you wanted to

 

Can you?  At our site?  Is that viable?

 

I'm not saying this to be an ass or confrontational, but saying it out of true need, cost/design.

I'm just not sure it's the right space for such things, given that this is really our only true greenspace downtown and the fact that it's not "that" big... I think courts of any type would take up too much space, and look a little out of place.  Regardless, I'm ecstatic that they are bringing in the expertise and seem cognisant of the significance of getting these done "right".  Can't wait to see what they come up with.

Has anyone given any thought to the idea that having basketball courts (of all things) at that particular spot would be kinda tacky (and nothing against basketball...but turning what is suppose to be Cleveland's living room into a run of the mill play ground...this has national laughing stock written all over it).

^I have. i don't know about national laughing stock... but like i said, I think they would look very out of place.

Basketball courts? Is that the best we can do?... Didn't we do that in the Flats in the 90's?  Now in one of the front rooms? I'd say no way in hell...  Given the city's lack of attention to the simple things that could become bigger issues, aka 'prevention' ....you most certainly will be asking for potential problems.

I just think its a better idea to put something there that residents will use more than once a month.  We already have a park that no one uses and benches that no one sits on, lets put in something for the neighborhood that at least has the potential to give the mall an appearance of life during off hours.  I don't think fancier plants and benches will do that.

 

For example, I have friends that live downtown (bingham) that drive out to my house  so we can drive to the park to play tennis.  It would be nice if I could just meet them after work on the mall to play.  To commuters passing by on the drive home it would give the appearance of life after 5PM downtown and maybe improve the cities image a bit.

A well planned park featuring some of the settings I was describing in my 1st longer post, combined with some activity spaces, like skating, will be attractive enough to use more than once a month. It will never go out of style. If given a choice of such a great space, people might discover it more and more and use it a lot. Use, I hope..and not abuse. My opinion based on places I have been that serve up such scenes. It would be nice to see a place that inspires more physical fitness as well. Another component that can be implemented. Rock wall?

EC, I've got nothing against plants, but I'm not one to go to the botanical gardens more than once every 2 or 3 years.  I like the idea of a skating area(regular, ice, or combined), a rock wall would be cool if they can figure some way around liabilities.  Since the area to be remodeled is already split it might make more sense to have a split use, turning mall B into a recreational park and mall C into more of a scenic park. 

 

I think this location is one of the best for a recreational type of park.  Its close proximity to the majority of downtown residents will give it the best chance of being used on a daily basis.

I just think its a better idea to put something there that residents will use more than once a month.  We already have a park that no one uses and benches that no one sits on, lets put in something for the neighborhood that at least has the potential to give the mall an appearance of life during off hours.  I don't think fancier plants and benches will do that.

 

For example, I have friends that live downtown (bingham) that drive out to my house  so we can drive to the park to play tennis.  It would be nice if I could just meet them after work on the mall to play.  To commuters passing by on the drive home it would give the appearance of life after 5PM downtown and maybe improve the cities image a bit.

 

No one uses?  No one? I think the area is too small and with the FEB being rebuilt, build these amenities into that.

 

the mall is too small for what you want and the ancillary amenties needed.

This might be a nice component...

to much for a small plot of land.

These are two different areas. Just ideas for what can be a part of the overall scheme. On many occasions throughout the day, they are highly used by pedestrians.... Much welcoming. Here is another nice pedestrian mall... Actually a dead time of day in the photo though...as most of the time it is quite full....

What draws people? Lets look at the various neighborhood festivals that people flock to....

 

Food

Drink

Homemade arts and crafts

Specialty clothing

Art demonstrations

 

So why not have an everyday marketplace where vendors can come to display and sell their stuff, and even entertain people by showing how they make it? They would have to get an approved vendors license from the city and supply their own approved display tent or stand. A limited number of vendors licenses would be available so that the marketplace doesn't get unmanageable.

 

Tie that in with a skate park, ice rink, movies in the park and some other things for people to watch or participate in and you've got a reason to visit the site every day to see/do something new.

At first I was puzzled by the paragraph in Litt's article in which the DCA said the public square redesign was on hold pending the redesign of the Malls, but (duh) it obviously makes sense to design these to be complimentary.  They're both pretty big spaces that should, together, allow for a nice mix of actively programmed stuff and more passive space. 

 

I don't know yet what I want to see on the Mall, but I'm relieved by the designer choice.  I definitely don't want a bland, symmetrical, vaguely neoclassical lawn/garden that is completely devoid of activity other than weekday lunch hour between May and October and occasional special events.  How about sculpture park with small concert/activity space and 3-season bar/restaurant with views?  If the Mall surfaces are substantially elevated above the sidewalk, we're going to need very thoughtful stairs/ramps and edges.

 

Just so we're all on the same page regarding size; Mall A and Mall B are each about 3.5 acres, I believe.  They're pretty big spaces.  I'm not really suggesting this, but you could fit 9 or 12 tennis courts there.

Just so we're all on the same page regarding size; Mall A and Mall B are each about 3.5 acres, I believe. They're pretty big spaces. I'm not really suggesting this, but you could fit 9 or 12 tennis courts there.

 

Or four or five bowling alleys. What?! This is Cleveland!!

 

As for the mall vendors things, this is similar to what I'm talking about but with more demonstrations of making stuff, more food and more live music and street performers:

 

Tremont's Lincoln Park....

 

 

 

 

Clifton Art & Music Fest....

 

 

 

Here's a quick, to scale mock-up of Mall B with recreational facilities (sidewalks would remain as they are today).  I'm not advocating any of these facilities in particular, I just wanted to give an idea how many things there is room for.  All courts/rinks are professional sized, tennis and basketball courts have an additional 10ft on all sides.  There is still plenty of space left for flexible activities, I put the tents on there to show how easily a small market could fit (tents are 15x15).  This is comparable to some of the better parks I've seen in the area (minus baseball fields), and this still leaves Mall C, with its better view, open to a garden style park.

 

I say we put the bungee catapalt next to the skating area (could be a rink for in-line skate hockey in the summer).

how about one of these  :laugh:

 

Act

What draws people? Lets look at the various neighborhood festivals that people flock to....

 

Food

Drink

Homemade arts and crafts

Specialty clothing

Art demonstrations

 

So why not have an everyday marketplace where vendors can come to display and sell their stuff, and even entertain people by showing how they make it? They would have to get an approved vendors license from the city and supply their own approved display tent or stand. A limited number of vendors licenses would be available so that the marketplace doesn't get unmanageable.

 

Tie that in with a skate park, ice rink, movies in the park and some other things for people to watch or participate in and you've got a reason to visit the site every day to see/do something new.

 

 

Actually, the Mall is already able to accommodate many of the such things mentioned. It is simply underutilized. More people also have to support such markets/vendors when downtown does offer such things like Art/Craft/Farmers markets.... to justify vendor's time, money, and interest in setting up. Such a scene would probably want to draw in support from outside the city as well, however, remember: We are in a place in time in history where many have forgotten how to shop unless there is a huge parking lot, or if it is handed to them through a drive-thru window. Some have forgotten how to walk to the point they waddle. People need to be given a new way....a new choice.  I guess its an educational process to get back to some of the basics of how to live or shop in the city, or why. Auto-driven landscapes have created many connections...but at the same time, sooo  many disconnections.

 

If maintained well, a carousel may be a nice addition....  let's not, however, make what is supposed to be an austere public prominent and proud place look too much like a ticky tacky playground. At the same time, let's not get too far ahead of things because the square/mall are projects that are not going to be reality anytime soon...so..let's make the best of what it can be right now by maintaining these areas well...and utilizing them in a balanced way that draws new interest to the city.

heavy sigh

EC, this site is our canvas. Let us plan, play and dream.

Saw this on the front page of the paper today. I have no problem with enhancing this area...

 

However, it would be a wise to carry a vision that would expand the idea farther and to strive for a more green/sustainable landscape. Don't let suburban thinking and "Chemical Lawn" be the driving force influences of design.

 

By this I mean eliminating the uses of carcinogenic lawn chemicals/pesticides as many other cities have done  (see www.beyondpesticides.org for further information) and as often as possible, strive to use Ohio natural heritage plants...natives that were here when say... Moses landed which are more suitable for this climate because they evolved here without the help of humans. (www.prairienursery.com or www.ohioprairienursery.com has a great selections of appropriate plants)

 

By using as much as possible....we can reduce chemical use and oil dependency, while opening up a while new door for learning and new jobs associated with stewarding this new kind of living landscape. It can also be a great P.R. move to demonstrate complete turnarounds from the city's polluting past...and help to can those burning river jokes once and for all. What is so impressive about The Royal Botanical gardens (Sydney) which is right in the core of the CBD, is the beneficial bio-diversity that co-exists perfectly with the city life. This is hailed and praised as such a treasured attribute of that city and it presents no problems, but many benefits. many here need to be better informed about how such can provide many benefits and stop thinking like a mental midget with the ideology that is worried about a bird pooping on their car.

 

I hope we can do the same as cities like that instead of the dated sterile suburban lifeless turf grass scene, where the only thing seen moving is a lawnmower and the only fragrance you smell is courtesy of Monsanto or Ortho. The website above that features a company based in Wisconsin, has done many large scale plantings in urban areas and has a great resume in such consultation. We cannot be a "green city" and create an energy dependent and lake polluting landscape.

 

+1

 

If maintained well, a carousel may be a nice addition.... let's not, however, make what is supposed to be an austere public prominent and proud place look too much like a ticky tacky playground. At the same time, let's not get too far ahead of things because the square/mall are projects that are not going to be reality anytime soon...so..let's make the best of what it can be right now by maintaining these areas well...and utilizing them in a balanced way that draws new interest to the city.

 

A proud place?  We've already got lovely parks on the Mall with places to sit and relax, a gorgeous fountain, lots of room for temporary events, and its hardly ever used.  If building a functional amenity in the middle of downtown residents is tacky, then I'd rather have something tacky that's used daily than something that is "austere public prominent and proud" that only gets used at lunch and rarely on the weekends.  We've already got that.

With MMPI joining up with Parkworks and Cleveland Public Art as well at the Landscape Arch's from WA, I am sure what they come up with will be spectacular. 

 

I really think we can do something that will be a draw to the whole community, if it is done right

 

Here are some pics of Millenium Park.  My guess is if you took off the band shell, the size the the Peristyle, restaurant/bean, and the Crown fountains are about the same size as Mall A, B, and C

 

Here is the rink in winter, then summer

Anything besides the current unadorned grass would work for me.  But I think the highest and best use here is Class A office space.  Develop it, make the CBD more attractive for businesses, continue to repurpose older office space into residential, and put the "greenspace" focus back on Public Square where it belongs.  This would involve greening-up Public Square, a prospect that already has some momentum.

What draws people? Lets look at the various neighborhood festivals that people flock to....

 

Food

Drink

Homemade arts and crafts

Specialty clothing

Art demonstrations

 

KJP, that reminds me of the really excellent  film The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces where William Whyte asserts that "relationship to the street, seating, sun, water, trees, food, and triangulation" are the most important factors to consider when creating public urban spaces (including parks).

 

If you all haven't watched this film, you really ought to (YouTube link to Part 1 of 6- see them all).  It's droll, informative, and filled with really excellent sideburns.

This might be a nice component...

 

In the last picture in this post, do I see the proposed/cancelled Ameritrust Tower (which was going to be built on Public Square) in the background?  Was the design sold elsewhere?