But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

 

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

BBQ pits are a smarter idea than basketball and volleyball courts.

I would say the opposite.  With the current obesity epidemic I think we need more ways for people to exercise, not more ways for people to eat :)

 

There's room for all that stuff.  The more things to draw people down there, the better.

 

So knock down East 4th St and make it a running track.  Lard begone!

 

Seriously, if we're trying to elminate the perception that the Mall is lonely and foresaken, we shouldn't relegate any portion of the new design to uses that are impossible for nearly half the year in our climate.  Outdoor basketball courts are guaranteed empty today in Cleveland.  And aren't they usually surrounded by chain link fences?  Let's not do that here.

But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

 

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable. If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written? Better yet would it even be up for discussion. Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

 

Doubtfully since I dont know of many thugs that like to play tennis or miniature gold for that matter.

But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

 

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

 

No need for insult. And especially trying to call me racist, which I am far from. Ive been to mostly white basketball courts and just hear swearing and bad behavior including fights. Its nothing to do with race, its just what teenagers do, of all races.

So knock down East 4th St and make it a running track. Lard begone!

 

Seriously, if we're trying to elminate the perception that the Mall is lonely and foresaken, we shouldn't relegate any portion of the new design to uses that are impossible for nearly half the year in our climate. Outdoor basketball courts are guaranteed empty today in Cleveland. And aren't they usually surrounded by chain link fences? Let's not do that here.

 

Excellent points, and please no chain link fences! That would be so out of place

A basketball court would be an unbelievably stupid idea. It's never gonna happen.

But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

 

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

 

Doubtfully since I dont know of many thugs that like to play tennis or miniature gold for that matter.

Sweetie you'd be surprised.

 

But would basketball courts draw large groups of teenagers hanging out at and swearing that would turn people off especially families? We want it to become a family friendly environment. Im not saying basketball courts would automatically be bad, but it does have the potential to be. Tennis courts would be less of a problem but then again, how often would they actually be used?

 

sounds like the people on Cleveland.com, worried that this would be a draw for black and or thugs, since many think the two are interchangeable.  If I said tennis or miniature golf court, would the same amount of hate be written?  Better yet would it even be up for discussion.  Granted I think many of those comments are by people who do not live in the city center or know anything about urban living/neighborhoods.

 

No need for insult. And especially trying to call me racist, which I am far from. Ive been to mostly white basketball courts and just hear swearing and bad behavior including fights. Its nothing to do with race, its just what teenagers do, of all races.

That wasn't an insult that was question!  I think you and everyone on here knows me well enough that I was going to call you a racist, I would have done just that.

 

So.....again why does it matter, why would you ask that? Why would anyone think the courts would be a draw for undesirables?

^ Basketball courts, a lot of the time, seem to draw large groups of teenagers, of all races, which often perform bad behavior such as swearing, fighting, and loudness which is a negative thing in a setting that the mall is trying to create. There are clearly better locations in the city for basketbal courts.

^ Basketball courts, a lot of the time, seem to draw large groups of teenagers, of all races, which often perform bad behavior such as swearing, fighting, and loudness which is a negative thing in a setting that the mall is trying to create. There are clearly better locations in the city for basketbal courts.

 

Then why ask the question?  Do you see where I'm going with this?  If you knew the answer why ask? 

 

I am not a fan of any permanent sports courts here.  I trail along the northern portion of the mall starting from CSU going thru the avenue disttic/north coast harbor/warehouse district lake to the east bank of the flat with various fitness stations would to me be a better way to weave the mall into the fabric of the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

Now having rotating events such that are programmed into the mall such as the nike 3-on-3, X games sports, miniature golf competitions, etc., would serve the mall better as they want this to be a gathering place for all.  Planning various events that garner to differnent audiences gives you many more impression than one type of permanent structure in this context.

They should put a cafe out on the mall with a lot of outdoor seating and make it open 24hrs.  Basically Cafe du Monde Cleveland style.

So knock down East 4th St and make it a running track.  Lard begone!

 

Seriously, if we're trying to elminate the perception that the Mall is lonely and foresaken, we shouldn't relegate any portion of the new design to uses that are impossible for nearly half the year in our climate.  Outdoor basketball courts are guaranteed empty today in Cleveland.  And aren't they usually surrounded by chain link fences?  Let's not do that here.

 

BBQ pits have the same issue with weather.  I can't think of any activities that have year round draw for a large number of people.  I'd argue that you'd get a large number of office workers who would use the facilities during lunch and after work.  Look at the soccer fields at progressive on rt.91 during lunch or after work.  Or look at Sherwin Williams near the river.  Both of those places get lots of use.

 

^ Basketball courts, a lot of the time, seem to draw large groups of teenagers, of all races, which often perform bad behavior such as swearing, fighting, and loudness which is a negative thing in a setting that the mall is trying to create. There are clearly better locations in the city for basketbal courts.

 

Would it be that hard to have a cop walk by every once in a while to keep people in check?  Not necessarily a permanent babysitter, but its easy enough for someone to be in the area pretty regularly.

 

I'd also argue that the mall is a perfect location for recreational courts with its close proximity to the vast majority of downtown housing. 

 

A basketball court would be an unbelievably stupid idea.

 

The reason being?

 

 

They should have a running/walking track with markers every few hundred feet detailing Cleveland mall events throughout history

They should put a cafe out on the mall with a lot of outdoor seating and make it open 24hrs.  Basically Cafe du Monde Cleveland style.

 

Yes there should be some sort of cafe but 24 hours? I think that would be pushing it.

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

They should put a cafe out on the mall with a lot of outdoor seating and make it open 24hrs. Basically Cafe du Monde Cleveland style.

 

This I like.  Maybe the outdoor seating couldn't be used year round, but the cafe certainly could be.  And that I think would help the Mall. 

 

Basketball courts would not help, not even in the summer when they're usable.  We're talking about a promenade surrounded by stately government buildings.  It's supposed to be the city's elegant front yard.  I could almost get behind putting in a basketball court if everything else flanking the Mall were moved and replaced with housing, drastically altering its purpose and character.  But even then, given our climate, we'd be better off putting basketball indoors as part of a rec center.  Downtown could use a city rec center.  But an outdoor basketball court on the Mall sounds like a long term planning idea produced by a committee that includes Mike Holmgren.  Which it is. 

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

 

But they have baseball fields.  Why are we comparing something grant park to cleveland's mall?  Two different things!

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

 

Basketball no, but unless google satellite view is wrong, across the street to the south of buckingham fountain are 16 baseball diamonds, 6 tennis courts, and 2 sand volleyball courts.  There are also 12 more tennis courts just east of millenium park.

^^ Just saying even a park of that size chooses to exclude basketball courts.

They should put a cafe out on the mall with a lot of outdoor seating and make it open 24hrs.  Basically Cafe du Monde Cleveland style.

 

This I like.  Maybe the outdoor seating couldn't be used year round, but the cafe certainly could be.  And that I think would help the Mall. 

 

Basketball courts would not help, not even in the summer when they're usable.  We're talking about a promenade surrounded by stately government buildings. It's supposed to be the city's elegant front yard.  I could almost get behind putting in a basketball court if everything else flanking the Mall were moved and replaced with housing, drastically altering its purpose and character.  But even then, given our climate, we'd be better off putting basketball indoors as part of a rec center.  Downtown could use a city rec center.  But an outdoor basketball court on the Mall sounds like a long term planning idea produced by a committee that includes Mike Holmgren.  Which it is. 

 

To say that it's suppose to be our front yard I can get behind, but to say this is cooked up by Holmgren or the committee he/the browns organization is apart of is far fetched.  Do you have proof?

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

 

Basketball no, but unless google satellite view is wrong, across the street to the south of grant park are 16 baseball diamonds, 6 tennis courts, and 2 sand volleyball courts.  There are also 12 more tennis courts just east of millenium park.

 

Thank you.  As I said earlier, how can you compare a LARGE planned city park like grant park to the mall?  It's totally irrelevant shouldn't be apart of this conversation.

 

The mall should be compared to NY's city hall park, DC Lafayette park/Elipse, Houston's Sam Houston Park, San Franciscos Union Square or Brooklyn's Cadman Plaza.

It was discussed earlier in this very thread, I believe. All 3 major sports teams have representation on the Mall planning committee.  I know they're not the whole committee.  But when ideas like a basketball court become public, it leads me to question that approach in a general sense. 

It was discussed earlier in this very thread, I believe.  All 3 major sports teams have representation on the Mall planning committee.

 

Yes but what proof is that of them pushing basketball courts.  Might they wish to be proponents of physical activity?  Is it possible for discussion the courts were thrown out there although nothing has been set in stone.

 

I think it's wrong to call him out and blame him when you have no proof.

^^ Just saying even a park of that size chooses to exclude basketball courts.

I believe volleyball was also an option according to the article.

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

 

Basketball no, but unless google satellite view is wrong, across the street to the south of grant park are 16 baseball diamonds, 6 tennis courts, and 2 sand volleyball courts. There are also 12 more tennis courts just east of millenium park.

 

Thank you. As I said earlier, how can you compare a LARGE planned city park like grant park to the mall? It's totally irrelevant shouldn't be apart of this conversation.

 

The mall should be compared to NY's city hall park, DC Lafayette park/Elipse, Houston's Sam Houston Park, San Franciscos Union Square or Brooklyn's Cadman Plaza.

 

It wasn't necessary comparing it. Comparing it in the wrong way would be saying that we should have all the things it has which makes no sense because it is clearly not the same thing or size. But I think making an observation that a park of its stature does not choose to have basketball courts is reasonable.

I definitely agree that the Mall should have an indoor/outdoor restaurant.  I was recently in NYC and thought of the example of Bryant Park:  The park is surrounded by trees and small sitting areas, and on the far side is the Bryant Park Grill.  Granted, the outdoor part of the restaurant couldn't be used all year round, but if it was large inside as well, it would still be successful. Bryant Park used to be far more undesirable than the Mall, and it has completely turned around!  In the winter months, they have an ice skating rink, and also have flower and holiday markets year round.  Bryant Park and the Mall are, granted, different kinds of spaces, but the same I think if we used the same principles, the Mall could be just as vibrant.

I definitely agree that the Mall should have an indoor/outdoor restaurant.  I was recently in NYC and thought of the example of Bryant Park:  The park is surrounded by trees and small sitting areas, and on the far side is the Bryant Park Grill.  Granted, the outdoor part of the restaurant couldn't be used all year round, but if it was large inside as well, it would still be successful. Bryant Park used to be far more undesirable than the Mall, and it has completely turned around!  In the winter months, they have an ice skating rink, and also have flower and holiday markets year round.  Bryant Park and the Mall are, granted, different kinds of spaces, but the same I think if we used the same principles, the Mall could be just as vibrant.

 

Bryant Park is a great observation.  but lets be clear the sitting areas are inside the park. there is a fountain and a carousel.  In the past 15 years they've turned that park from a eye sore into a pleasant oasis in the middle of the city!  Granted it took a ton of private money to do.

I think the fact that Chicago's Grant Park has ZERO basketball courts(to my knowledge) in an area that is much much larger than our Malls shows that basketball courts aren't necessarily the best idea.

 

Basketball no, but unless google satellite view is wrong, across the street to the south of grant park are 16 baseball diamonds, 6 tennis courts, and 2 sand volleyball courts.  There are also 12 more tennis courts just east of millenium park.

 

Thank you.  As I said earlier, how can you compare a LARGE planned city park like grant park to the mall?  It's totally irrelevant shouldn't be apart of this conversation.

 

The mall should be compared to NY's city hall park, DC Lafayette park/Elipse, Houston's Sam Houston Park, San Franciscos Union Square or Brooklyn's Cadman Plaza.

 

It wasn't necessary comparing it. Comparing it in the wrong way would be saying that we should have all the things it has which makes no sense because it is clearly not the same thing or size. But I think making an observation that a park of its stature does not choose to have basketball courts is reasonable.

 

But you are comparing Grant to the mall.  They are two different types of space and cannot be compared.  I've listed several public spaces which can be compared to our mall and that we should look at emulating.

^ I think that in that sense that even the parks you listed cant be compared because the mall is such a unique place since it is surrounded by mostly all government buildings facing the opposite direction. A new formula will need to be created to work with what we have

 

In addition to its size and the fact that it is a roof and needs to be elevated.

 

What if we designed some sort of waterfall to cover the walls of the elevated land?

^ I think that in that sense that even the parks you listed cant be compared because the mall is such a unique place since it is surrounded by mostly all government buildings facing the opposite direction. A new formula will need to be created to work with what we have

 

In addition to its size and the fact that it is a roof and needs to be elevated.

 

What if we designed some sort of waterfall to cover the walls of the elevated land?

WHAT??  You must be kidding me.  Have you been to any of the parks I listed?

New York City hall park doesnt fit. Lets not continue this discussion here, if you want we can do it in a PM.

What if we designed some sort of waterfall to cover the walls of the elevated land?

 

Oooo, I like that too.  We've had trouble with water features here before but I'd still like to incorporate one.

New York City hall park doesnt fit. Lets not continue this discussion here, if you want we can do it in a PM.

 

Again, have you been to any park I listed? Each park I listed is historic and in the CBD surround by period buildings, similar to what our mall has.

 

NYC' city hall park is surrounded by government buildings tied into the brooklyn bridge.

Cadman Plaza is lined with the courthouse, Boro Hall and the old post office

Lafayette Park is suround by government building and the white house

Bryant Park in the middle of Midtown manhattan attached to the public library

 

TODAY these are all places that people use for various reasons and attract corporations for special events.

 

These parks should be looked at for inspiration as we redesign and re-purpose our beloved mall.

Until we see a set of hoops being constructed, let's stop fixating on castles in the sky.

What if we designed some sort of waterfall to cover the walls of the elevated land?

 

Oooo, I like that too. We've had trouble with water features here before but I'd still like to incorporate one.

 

I think it could work, I also think it would be very innovative, an attraction that would draw people, and nice area to relax.

I'm not in favor of bball court, but you could look on the bright side..... at least it would give all the thugs something to do other than hootin and hollering at out women, beating up a few of our forumers who always manage to get attacked on public square, and stealing purses from grandma on the rapid.

Agree with the cafe idea.

 

You cannot go wrong with a stylishly placed indoor/outdoor restaurant. Designed like the Bryant Park grill, it could get use all year round.

 

Anyhow, when I hear of basketball courts or tennis my first thought is that these athletic resources should be consolidated near CSU.

Agree with the cafe idea.

 

You cannot go wrong with a stylishly placed indoor/outdoor restaurant. Designed like the Bryant Park grill, it could get use all year round.

 

Anyhow, when I hear of basketball courts or tennis my first thought is that these athletic resources should be consolidated near CSU.

 

I don't agree.  I think a field house/rec center incorporated into the rebuilding of the East Bank of the Flat would be amazing!

Agree with the cafe idea.

 

You cannot go wrong with a stylishly placed indoor/outdoor restaurant. Designed like the Bryant Park grill, it could get use all year round.

 

Anyhow, when I hear of basketball courts or tennis my first thought is that these athletic resources should be consolidated near CSU.

 

I don't agree. I think a field house/rec center incorporated into the rebuilding of the East Bank of the Flat would be amazing!

 

Well, that would be kinda cool I suppose!

 

I just remembered...there are sand volleyball courts over at a new bar on the flats west bank, and inside the bar there's a large area for basketball and dodgeball. It's pretty sweet. It's just north of McCarthy's...I forget the name.

Mulberry's

while i like the idea of an iconic 24/7 restaurant, i dislike the idea of blocking the open mall vista of the lake with that. then again if raising the mall does that anyway i'd say go for it -- and yeah ring the raised sides of it with waterfalls, thats a good idea too. save the bball courts for pocket parks and the lakefront.

For now...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/01/designs_for_cleveland_medical.html

 

"The city will retain ownership of the surface of the Mall, which it wants to become a much more vibrant public park and a catalyst for other development nearby, especially housing."

 

I think that's really what's needed to animate the mall.  While people like to talk about the benefits of preserving a master plan that's over 100 years old, the fact is that mall space doesn't have anything to "feed" it.  It there was a 30-story apartment complex whose main entrance spilled out onto it, you'd have people riding bikes, running, walking dogs, reading, eating, etc.  But you have a bunch of civic buildings whose entrances/exits don't even face the mall.

For now...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/01/designs_for_cleveland_medical.html

 

"The city will retain ownership of the surface of the Mall, which it wants to become a much more vibrant public park and a catalyst for other development nearby, especially housing."

 

I think that's really what's needed to animate the mall. While people like to talk about the benefits of preserving a master plan that's over 100 years old, the fact is that mall space doesn't have anything to "feed" it. It there was a 30-story apartment complex whose main entrance spilled out onto it, you'd have people riding bikes, running, walking dogs, reading, eating, etc. But you have a bunch of civic buildings whose entrances/exits don't even face the mall.

 

Where would it go?

Here is a map I made of available land surrounding the mall

 

 

http://tinyurl.com/6eo4p8v

 

 

For now...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/01/designs_for_cleveland_medical.html

 

"The city will retain ownership of the surface of the Mall, which it wants to become a much more vibrant public park and a catalyst for other development nearby, especially housing."

 

I think that's really what's needed to animate the mall.  While people like to talk about the benefits of preserving a master plan that's over 100 years old, the fact is that mall space doesn't have anything to "feed" it.  It there was a 30-story apartment complex whose main entrance spilled out onto it, you'd have people riding bikes, running, walking dogs, reading, eating, etc.  But you have a bunch of civic buildings whose entrances/exits don't even face the mall.

 

You mean to tell me that big door into the board of Ed is not an entrance or exit?  You mean to tell me that 60 entrance into the Convention center is not an entrance or exit?

:wtf:

For now...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/01/designs_for_cleveland_medical.html

 

"The city will retain ownership of the surface of the Mall, which it wants to become a much more vibrant public park and a catalyst for other development nearby, especially housing."

 

I think that's really what's needed to animate the mall.  While people like to talk about the benefits of preserving a master plan that's over 100 years old, the fact is that mall space doesn't have anything to "feed" it.  It there was a 30-story apartment complex whose main entrance spilled out onto it, you'd have people riding bikes, running, walking dogs, reading, eating, etc.  But you have a bunch of civic buildings whose entrances/exits don't even face the mall.

 

Where would it go?

 

Maybe they have a loose concept of "nearby," because there's not much land to work with in the mall's immediate vicinity.  I just don't see much potential for so-called vibrancy here.  The entire civic center portion of downtown wasn't set up for that.  So we should make the Mall the nicest oversized courtyard it can possibly be.  Maximize the potential it does have.  Looks like current plans do just that, which I'm fine with.  More trees and less concrete are good moves. 

 

But I really think we should temper our expectations... the only concentrated activity on the Mall, post revamp, will be planned fesitvals and spillover from CC events.  Just like now.  If downtown's population tripled, I'm sure that would increase Mall traffic somewhat.  But most of the traffic increase would be around the new housing/retail/etc., rather than on the Mall, and I strongly doubt those people will have all moved downtown because we replaced one grassy field with another one.  Thus my main objective for this project is to keep the budget within reason.  So far so good!

For now...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/01/designs_for_cleveland_medical.html

 

"The city will retain ownership of the surface of the Mall, which it wants to become a much more vibrant public park and a catalyst for other development nearby, especially housing."

 

I think that's really what's needed to animate the mall.  While people like to talk about the benefits of preserving a master plan that's over 100 years old, the fact is that mall space doesn't have anything to "feed" it.  It there was a 30-story apartment complex whose main entrance spilled out onto it, you'd have people riding bikes, running, walking dogs, reading, eating, etc.  But you have a bunch of civic buildings whose entrances/exits don't even face the mall.

 

Where would it go?

 

Maybe they have a loose concept of "nearby," because there's not much land to work with in the mall's immediate vicinity.  I just don't see much potential for so-called vibrancy here.  The entire civic center portion of downtown wasn't set up for that.  So we should make the Mall the nicest oversized courtyard it can possibly be.  Maximize the potential it does have.  Looks like current plans do just that, which I'm fine with.  More trees and less concrete are good moves. 

 

But I really think we should temper our expectations... the only concentrated activity on the Mall, post revamp, will be planned fesitvals and spillover from CC events.  Just like now.  If downtown's population tripled, I'm sure that would increase Mall traffic somewhat.  But most of the traffic increase would be around the new housing/retail/etc., rather than on the Mall, and I strongly doubt those people will have all moved downtown because we replaced one grassy field with another one.  Thus my main objective for this project is to keep the budget within reason.  So far so good!

 

I hope it goes over budget!  So that the building is built right, the first time!

I'm not talking about the building, just the Mall.  I agree about getting the building right.

I'm not talking about the building, just the Mall.  I agree about getting the building right.

 

I'm talking about the building as well!

Here is a map I made of available land surrounding the mall

http://tinyurl.com/6eo4p8v

 

Placemark 1 is spoken for - they're building a parking garage for Calfee Halter there.

Here is a map I made of available land surrounding the mall

http://tinyurl.com/6eo4p8v

 

Placemark 1 is spoken for - they're building a parking garage for Calfee Halter there.

 

Thanks, I forgot about that project, have they started yet? All of our narrower side streets seem to turn into parking garage rows. Except for east 4th or course, and East 6th is half

I think more housing in the WHD would suffice... i mean... its THREE TO SIX BLOCKS away. If it is a decent greenspace, it will be used. There are green spaces all over the world in downtowns that is not directly adjacent that people somehow find a way to use.