Seriously are you telling me the only people that use central park are those that live alongside it? C'mon.

Seriously are you telling me the only people that use central park are those that live alongside it? C'mon.

It doesn't have to be something as big as central park.  I've seen people sit out in the middle of Shaker Square.

Seriously are you telling me the only people that use central park are those that live alongside it? C'mon.

 

Well, no, that's a broad statement, but:

 

1- It certainly helps that Central Park is lined with residential (I'm guessing they did that on purpose), and

2- We're talking two wildly different scales, in terms of the city and the park.

 

The Mall is insulated from foot traffic.  It isn't miles away from it, but it is insulated.  I think that's the primary reason it's as dead as it is, and I don't expect major changes in its usage when the renovation is complete.  My point here is a response to the city's expressed hope, quoted at the top of this page, that the Mall's renovation will spur housing development.  I think that connection is tenuous.  But I do like the renovation plans, in general, and I do believe downtown housing growth will continue. 

If some sort of an attraction is added, people will come. And it will always get a pretty decent sized lunch crowd.

Seriously are you telling me the only people that use central park are those that live alongside it? C'mon.

 

Well, no, that's a broad statement, but:

 

1- It certainly helps that Central Park is lined with residential (I'm guessing they did that on purpose), and

2- We're talking two wildly different scales, in terms of the city and the park.

 

The Mall is insulated from foot traffic.  It isn't miles away from it, but it is insulated.  I think that's the primary reason it's as dead as it is, and I don't expect major changes in its usage when the renovation is complete.  My point here is a response to the city's expressed hope, quoted at the top of this page, that the Mall's renovation will spur housing development.  I think that connection is tenuous.  But I do like the renovation plans, in general, and I do believe downtown housing growth will continue. 

 

As I said last week, there are smaller civic/historical parks that are now used as green space.  Cadmann Plaza being a prime example.

^ Cadmann Plaza still has a decent amount of residencies in close proximity. If the warehouse district lot would fill up then I could see the mall really doing well. I think it still has the ability to do well without the added residencies though.

^ Cadmann Plaza still has a decent amount of residencies in close proximity.

 

Those residencies are close to cadman plaza, just like the mall is close to the warehouse district, right?  ;)

Yes like I said, but Cadmann has a larger surrounding population which is why I said if the Warhouse District lots get filled in then the mall would do really good, but it still has enough of population, lunch crowd, and posible visitors if an attraction is put in place, to have a good sized crowd.

Does anyone remember what the latest (last) comment from the city was about the Public Auditorium?  I haven't seen the inside of it in years, and don't know much about the rooms, halls, venues, but wonder if it would ever make a good multi-use building.  Apartments, Hotel, Condominiums, retail, restaurants...  It would take LOTS of money and I don't expect that to be the reality for any time in the near term, but has anyone ever heard discussions for future (creative?) uses?

Does anyone remember what the latest (last) comment from the city was about the Public Auditorium?  I haven't seen the inside of it in years, and don't know much about the rooms, halls, venues, but wonder if it would ever make a good multi-use building.  Apartments, Hotel, Condominiums, retail, restaurants...  It would take LOTS of money and I don't expect that to be the reality for any time in the near term, but has anyone ever heard discussions for future (creative?) uses?

 

Have you read the Convention Center thread??

Does anyone remember what the latest (last) comment from the city was about the Public Auditorium? I haven't seen the inside of it in years, and don't know much about the rooms, halls, venues, but wonder if it would ever make a good multi-use building. Apartments, Hotel, Condominiums, retail, restaurants... It would take LOTS of money and I don't expect that to be the reality for any time in the near term, but has anyone ever heard discussions for future (creative?) uses?

 

Those you listed would be pretty much impossible due to the lack of windows and the way the building is designed.

Nothing final has been decided.  First step is to separate it from the CC.  I would wait for that to happen first before, but don't hold your breath for mixed use.  Its purpose should stay consistent with the inscription on the exterior.

Since the plans had it being disconnected from the convention center their is really nowhere specific to discuss it.

 

I thought I heard once that the construction of the casino will end up closing the time warner cable amphitheater. If this is true, which I could be wrong, that would leave a gap in our venues. I would like to see Public Auditorium used again for concerts that are to big for the house of blues or the nautica pavilion, but too small for the Q or the wolstein center. And with the Public Auditorium, weather would never be a factor.

Actually the plan now is to connect Public Hall to the Convention Center, below ground.

They would still demolish that glass addition though.

 

MMPI later angered the city when it said it had discovered that Public Auditorium, originally included in the project, suffered from tens of millions of dollars in deferred maintenance on utilities. Public Auditorium will remain in city hands, although MMPI agreed to join it to the new convention center.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/11/now_its_a_real_deal_cuyahoga_c.html

You mean to tell me that big door into the board of Ed is not an entrance or exit? You mean to tell me that 60 entrance into the Convention center is not an entrance or exit?

 

The main entrance to the Board of Ed is on East 6th, not the Mall.

 

And yes, there's "an entrance" to the Convention Center that goes over a bridge to the mall, but when traffic "spills out" of the convention center, it spills out to Lakeside and St. Clair and the parking garage, not the Mall.

If some sort of an attraction is added, people will come. And it will always get a pretty decent sized lunch crowd.

 

It used to...

^ were there really more people eating lunch on the malls back then, or did it just seem that way because there was less open area?  Every time I go out there for lunch it seems decently crowded.

You mean to tell me that big door into the board of Ed is not an entrance or exit?  You mean to tell me that 60 entrance into the Convention center is not an entrance or exit?

 

The main entrance to the Board of Ed is on East 6th, not the Mall.

 

And yes, there's "an entrance" to the Convention Center that goes over a bridge to the mall, but when traffic "spills out" of the convention center, it spills out to Lakeside and St. Clair and the parking garage, not the Mall.

 

True, but there is a huge set of door on to the mall.  I'm going by what you wrote.

^ were there really more people eating lunch on the malls back then, or did it just seem that way because there was less open area?  Every time I go out there for lunch it seems decently crowded.

 

the malls would be packed at lunch time.  Granted we had a much larger downtown work force with SOHIO and other Corporate HQ's still here.

 

I would go to the malls all the time.  It was nice to stroll around especially on a nice spring day before the humidity set in.  At night.....it was a whole different type crowd.

At night.....it was a whole different type crowd.

 

 

And yet you were still there....JK..

 

 

Probably another contributing factor to the reduce numbers eating lunch on the mall besides the HQs leaving, I would imagine is the make up of the workforce in the office buildings. It has  changed signficantly over the last 30 years. Huge decreases in admin staff such as secretaries, mailroom and typists pool, the kind of people more likely to pack a lunch and eat outside. Now its more people just as likely to eat at their desk as they work through lunch.

 

FWIW. When I worked down there I would find myself gravitating towards the fountain on mall A when I ate outside at lunch. I never found a space that was all that comfortable on the current mall B. I also liked sitting on the benches on mall C and looking out over the lake.

At night.....it was a whole different type crowd.

 

 

And yet you were still there....JK..

 

 

Probably another contributing factor to the reduce numbers eating lunch on the mall besides the HQs leaving, I would imagine is the make up of the workforce in the office buildings. It has  changed significantly over the last 30 years. Huge decreases in admin staff such as secretaries, mail room and typists pool, the kind of people more likely to pack a lunch and eat outside. Now its more people just as likely to eat at their desk as they work through lunch.

 

Yes it was a ball!!  People would set up bomb boxes, play house music and people would party on the mall after the clubs closed.  It was "the after hours" spot.  I can remember people voguing down the mall!  Those were the days.  <sigh> 

 

That would go on for maybe an hour, then the hookers and hoes cruised.

 

I kind of agree with that, along with the Department stores closing, there was no reason to "just" come Downtown.

I think a dog park in a small corner of the entire mall site would be a hit. 

^Not the right place for a dog park, IMO.  I'd put it in the Flats as part of the FEB project.

Public auditorium combined with the mall thread as public hall was built as part of the malls -- both of which will be the city's responsibility to re-task.

 

Questions/discussions of the casino were deleted.

^Not the right place for a dog park, IMO.  I'd put it in the Flats as part of the FEB project.

I said under/along the Main Ave. Bridge in space that can't be used for development but could be repurposed for community needs

If I remember correctly doesn't the country courthouse have a back entrance? If so, why didn't they also place back entrances on the Library and federal courthouse, actually helping bringing some life to the mall? I dont see the thinking of putting a back entrance on the county courthouse but not the buildings actually facing the mall.

So we have until February 14th to see what the Group Plan 2.0 has in store for Cleveland's Mall and Green Space...  I wanted to put out this image which, I bet, has been in the mind of most UO readers forever...  I call it the "Cleveland Big Dig" after Bostons.... debacle?  But really... Cut off (ala Robert Moses) from the Lake for so long, that the dozen ideas that have been floated over the decades just don't seem to be enough.  The only true complete option is to tunnel the rail and roads beneath the surface, and slope the mall and the original Cleveland Bluff between E9 and W6 out toward the lake.  It will feed into future Lakefront plans, make the Rock Hall, Science Center, and Stadium fully pedestrian accessible and offer such a spectacular view from the water that people will be stunned to see the city of Cleveland.

 

I offer: one fell swoop, one big project, one (very expensive.....) final connection of Cleveland and Erie.

 

 

Interesting, you should add the land north of the Browns stadium too

Done.  (Though it would obviously become developed Retail/Residential/Commercial).  But grass is nice -- for now.

I hope that one day Cleveland’s downtown extends up to the water. I obviously look far far into the future, but how nice would it be to line the water front with parks and office and condo towers! Well I think it would be nice. Hopefully the renovation of the mall will spark more development and connect downtown with the lake better (there, I made by post relevant to the topic)

It seems the much cheaper and less intrusive option has been on the table for some time - build a Mall D that would extend out from Mall C over the existing tracks and shoreway.  Cheaper of course is a relative term in this context.  It would still cost a bundle, but losing the two garages and tunneling the tracks and the shoreway below grade seems like a pipe dream.

Even a "Mall D" would still be pretty costly, hell id even take a simple bridge for now.

It's a total pipe dream -- but the Group Plan Commission was brought together to put a vision forward, not a feasible option.  I just hope that when they announce their big plan it's not 70% of the true dream.  If nothing else, I hope they give us a Plan A (feasible, but extensive) and a Plan B the true vision for the future.  Millennium park was "envisioned" in the mid 19th Century and wasn't a complete project for almost 150 years.  If we imagine the Group Plan wouldn't need to reconvene until 2111, then we should propose a plan that takes that time frame into account.

 

 

In my humble opinion: this doesn't cut it for what we need to combat the disconnect:

 

I was part of a team that developed such an idea during the 2009 Cleveland Design Competition, however, the multimodal transit terminal served as the knuckle of the project at the corner of Summit Ave and W3rd Street.  I hope to get some images on here today or tomorrow to further this discussion.

I think a mall D would be perfect.  I would even take a wide pedestrian bridge.  I would really take anything :)

So would "this" be a Mall D design, or is it still beyond what anyone thinks is possible.  I tried to take into account the true elevation changes in this area, and promote a smaller build-out, and then "greened" the roofs of both parking garages. 

 

I did take the liberty to also extend the Huntington Garage out to the Shoreway bridge and then curved it alongside until Mall D.  I also built up the ground between E 9th and the Willard Garage.

 

For those wondering about my exercise in futility - I posted to "yourchangingcleveland" (in the smallest of hopes that some intern has been assigned to go through it on behalf of the group plan) that they should peruse our forum on the mall, and I have always found UO posters to have interesting ideas, critiques and responses to posts (even of imagined designs).    :clap:

Millennium park was "envisioned" in the mid 19th Century and wasn't a complete project for almost 150 years.

 

Well, they had to wait for the name to make sense.  LOLCATS!

Nice work! Very well done. I like what you've done with the northward extension in providing the box over the tracks and the step-down over the Shoreway and Erieside Avenue. I can foresee development of some kind between Mall D and East 9th.

 

Some critiques:

 

1. I realize this is beyond the scope of the mall plan, but in some ways it's not. That is to make the Shoreway a street-level boulevard (ala Lakeshore Boulevard in Chicago) with an intersection at East 9th, and combining it with West 3rd to go south over the tracks before turning due west again one block north of Lakeside. That avails more land between the stadium and the old county courthouse for development above the tracks. It also reduces the Shoreway as a visual barrier between downtown and the lakefront.

 

2. Narrow the width of the northward extension of the malls so that it is the same width as the Mall A and B. I realize your Mall D is the same width of Mall C, but I'm thinking of ways to reduce costs. Perhaps it could be widened to your proposed width as part of any development plans on the flanks of Mall D.

 

Thanks again for your creativity and effort!

He's a couple images of the Multimodal Transit Terminal our team came up with.  I'll try to get the aerials of the overall plan, but you can kinda get the idea here.

First view is basically from near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  The Shoreway is buried at this point but you can see it emerging with its current incline to the west.  The idea was to deal with the Shoreway as it currently exists and take advantage of its status as a major regional connection.  The rail station basically exists below it.  To the left is a park and beyond that an extension of the urban fabric cascading north from the courthouse, city hall, and Mall C (from W3rd to E9th).  Liberties were taken with additions to the Cleveland skyline of course...

Second image shows what you would see while driving on the Shoreway.  Behind that view is direct access to a multilevel parking garage and bus station.

Third image is a cross section (west to east) through the rail station, parallel to the tracks.  W3rd is to the left of the, with the previously mentioned park to the right.  The roof is considered a public park which begins and Huntington Park and rises up to a peak at Alfred Lerner Way and Wrd to catch Lake Erie sunsets and skyline vistas.

More to come.......

Nice work! Very well done. I like what you've done with the northward extension in providing the box over the tracks and the step-down over the Shoreway and Erieside Avenue. I can foresee development of some kind between Mall D and East 9th.

 

Some critiques:

 

1. I realize this is beyond the scope of the mall plan, but in some ways it's not. That is to make the Shoreway a street-level boulevard (ala Lakeshore Boulevard in Chicago) with an intersection at East 9th, and combining it with West 3rd to go south over the tracks before turning due west again one block north of Lakeside. That avails more land between the stadium and the old county courthouse for development above the tracks. It also reduces the Shoreway as a visual barrier between downtown and the lakefront.

 

2. Narrow the width of the northward extension of the malls so that it is the same width as the Mall A and B. I realize your Mall D is the same width of Mall C, but I'm thinking of ways to reduce costs. Perhaps it could be widened to your proposed width as part of any development plans on the flanks of Mall D.

 

Thanks again for your creativity and effort!

 

For item #2, the malls are that wide.  When they put the addition onto public hall, they visually narrowed the malls, and I think they put the truck docks onto the mall property.

With the renovation, the malls will be back to their original width

nice work Burnham! I agree with KJP in that the extension should only be as wide as Malls A and B. Also, I don't think it's necessary to have that extension between the shoreway and the courthouse. I'm keeping costs in mind of course. Also, those stairs go right over Erieside Avenue and there doesn't appear to be a way for cars to drive under it! This could be fixed by simply moving the stairs forward, and moving that fireman memorial somewhere else.

 

Seriously though, it looks like a great idea.

Also, those stairs go right over Erieside Avenue and there doesn't appear to be a way for cars to drive under it! This could be fixed by simply moving the stairs forward, and moving that fireman memorial somewhere else.

 

You're right -- fixed it a bit, but had to move the firefighters (maybe it could go on the mall somewhere).  Also added some stairs facing the new mall(s) and added the Med Mart (sort of).  I appreciate the ideas/comments.   

 

KJP - We could add a "Mall" stop to your Downtown loop where Mall D connects to the waterfront.

 

W28th - do you know what the next Cleveland Design Competition will be on?  Your entry for the 2010 one looks great.

He's a couple images of the Multimodal Transit Terminal our team came up with.  I'll try to get the aerials of the overall plan, but you can kinda get the idea here.

First view is basically from near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  The Shoreway is buried at this point but you can see it emerging with its current incline to the west.  The idea was to deal with the Shoreway as it currently exists and take advantage of its status as a major regional connection.  The rail station basically exists below it.  To the left is a park and beyond that an extension of the urban fabric cascading north from the courthouse, city hall, and Mall C (from W3rd to E9th).  Liberties were taken with additions to the Cleveland skyline of course...

Second image shows what you would see while driving on the Shoreway.  Behind that view is direct access to a multilevel parking garage and bus station.

Third image is a cross section (west to east) through the rail station, parallel to the tracks.  W3rd is to the left of the, with the previously mentioned park to the right.  The roof is considered a public park which begins and Huntington Park and rises up to a peak at Alfred Lerner Way and Wrd to catch Lake Erie sunsets and skyline vistas.

More to come.......

 

Loving the 2nd pic

He's a couple images of the Multimodal Transit Terminal our team came up with. I'll try to get the aerials of the overall plan, but you can kinda get the idea here.

First view is basically from near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The Shoreway is buried at this point but you can see it emerging with its current incline to the west. The idea was to deal with the Shoreway as it currently exists and take advantage of its status as a major regional connection. The rail station basically exists below it. To the left is a park and beyond that an extension of the urban fabric cascading north from the courthouse, city hall, and Mall C (from W3rd to E9th). Liberties were taken with additions to the Cleveland skyline of course...

Second image shows what you would see while driving on the Shoreway. Behind that view is direct access to a multilevel parking garage and bus station.

Third image is a cross section (west to east) through the rail station, parallel to the tracks. W3rd is to the left of the, with the previously mentioned park to the right. The roof is considered a public park which begins and Huntington Park and rises up to a peak at Alfred Lerner Way and Wrd to catch Lake Erie sunsets and skyline vistas.

More to come.......

 

Loving the 2nd pic

 

The first picture has some monster steps to climb up...

^ there only like 5 feet each! :)

These pics are all good, but I'd say anything that's going to cover the north facing wall of windows in the new convention center isn't going to happen.

These pics are all good, but I'd say anything that's going to cover the north facing wall of windows in the new convention center isn't going to happen.

 

Good thinking, forgot about that.

That why they needed to extend the convention center over the tracks.  But the new configuration isnt going to allow for additional exhibit hall space to the north. 

That why they needed to extend the convention center over the tracks. But the new configuration isnt going to allow for additional exhibit hall space to the north.

 

It's frustrating that out of all the allotted money, none of it is being used to allow the CC to span the tracks. 

 

To further impede future development north is just unacceptably short sighted.

These pics are all good, but I'd say anything that's going to cover the north facing wall of windows in the new convention center isn't going to happen.

 

Good thinking, forgot about that.

 

That's been my chief concern about this plan from the beginning.  MMPI is so obsessed with their northward windows that they're willing to permanently prevent direct rail access to the facility, as well as any possible linkage with the attractions those windows overlook.  This isn't their own money they're playing with.  The county shouldn't allow them to cut off the CC from the lakefront, or to scuttle NCTC.